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My fear is that, if I don't hand over the car keys, she will charge me with auto theft.

I never would have thought that possible, but after this ordeal, I am putting nothing past her.
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Have the car towed from your property.
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1. the positive thing:
dear OP --- i wish you and your mother well.

2. the negative thing:
of course i don't know all the facts, but:
the car accident story --- it bothers me a lot. your mother lived with you at the time. how is it possible you don't know more about what happened, legally? perhaps you preferred not to know.

you yourself said SHE was at fault, SHE caused the accident, and a human being died because of her car accident. (for sure, you had the opportunity if you wanted to, to speak to the relatives, apologize deeply on behalf of your mother).

that's manslaughter. a crime.
unintentionally killing someone.

the story bothers me a lot -- for many reasons.
1 reason is the easy way you write about it --- kind of like "oh, and a passenger died"...and then you move onto another topic.

we're talking about someone who died because of a car accident.

it's manslaughter. it's serious. and how can you possibly even allow the possibility of her driving a car again, when she (unintentionally) KILLED someone?

you have some power over this (i'm not saying you have all power over this) -- for example, as sp19690 writes, don't give the keys. it is immoral to help her in any way, to drive.

you said you don't want to be accused of auto theft. in that case, you "lost" the keys, you'll order new keys "soon". it's IMMORAL to give her the keys.

3. legal action against your mother

it's possible the relatives of the poor killed person, decided not to sue --- out of kindness, and out of grief. they had enough things to do (grieve, be sad). they maybe didn't want to add the stress of a court case. (ALSO, sometimes it's very hard to prove things; there might not have been witnesses; difficult to prove what happened in court).
BUTTTTTTTT, YOU SAID, your mother caused it. so morally ------ your mother should feel AWFUL for having done this.

if your mother wanted to, she could have spoken to the relatives, apologizing deeply and offering to help the living relatives.
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Grow up. You are a grown woman. Just tell them you misplaced/lost the car keys and leave it at that. You cannot be arrested for car theft. She left the car at your house. You didn't steal it from her property. There is no theft. I get its hard to actually DO something and easier to moan and complain and then passively just hand over the keys which you will probably do anyway. After all MOM gets what MOM wants.
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giving the keys, is potentially (i'm not speaking legally here, i mean morally), being an accomplice in a future accident/manslaughter. it's IRRESPONSIBLE, IMMORAL to give the keys.

this isn't just about your mother, and your feelings OP.
it's about LIFE. ANOTHER person's life out there who might get killed (AGAIN) by your mother.

how many more manslaughters until you decide OP, it's better indeed to "lose" the keys???????
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I recommend reading Liz Scheier's book Never Simple.
You will learn in that book that no matter WHAT you do
No matter WHAT the state does
No matter WHAT ANYONE does there is no good answer to your Mother.
Liz tried for decades to control, help, her mother; so did the entire city of NYC and the entire State of NY and their Social Workers. Her mother was mentally ill. Nothing helped. Nothing worked.
You have no control here. Take the keys? She can get another car. She can do whatever the public at large allows her to do. It isn't your business. You aren't her POA and you aren't her guardian.
Then step back and away from Mom and let her drive whatever she wants to Fullerton Motel or anywhere else and good luck.
At some point the State will take control of Mom, cars and all. Until then we should all hope we don't run into her. The state won't be able to control Mom either. Eventually cases like this often end up with homelessness and death.
So let Mom have the numbers for emergency.
She is not adjudged incompetent.
You are not her guardian.
You are not her POA.
And you are coming here with every little "Mom story". How long will that be the answer to what you do with your life?
I advise you step away. Let Mom do whatever she wants and stop answering your phone. Tell Mom you will check in with her a.m. and p.m. to see how she is. Stop giving her advice. Stop trying to control what cannot be controlled.
Let it go. Let it all go.
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Yes - your points are all solid.

I certainly don't mean to be cavalier about someone losing their life; apologies for it seeming that way. It was horrifying.

My mom deliberately excludes me from her dealings with things. I tried to get involved early on, as it related to the accident; I found out she didn't carry collision coverage, to my shock, and when I asked her about that, she shut me off entirely from accessing any more information or speaking on her behalf. Right or wrong, I accepted that; all I did at the time was talk to an attorney about whether I had any exposure or liability in that situation, which I was told I do not. So, I'm simply not privy to all that went on between her, the decedent's family, the insurance company, the hospital, etc. I get bits and pieces here and there, but, nothing concise or concrete. I have to believe deep down my mother feels remorse at the loss of her friend, and the implication of her part in that happening; I haven't seen too much evidence of that, though, outwardly anyway.

And, yes, I see the very valid points about the moral side of not passing her the car back. I could see her running off and renting a car, or even buying another car, though ... where does my culpability end in all this? I'm struggling with the fact that I have no control over her (foolish) decisions. Not sure if that sounds selfish ... its not meant to ...

Thanks for holding up a mirror, though. I'm rethinking my position.
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Would it be possible to take the take and leave it with your brother and if he is fool enough to hand it over, it is on him. He can't seriously think it is ok to let her drive this car.

Protect yourself. Do not be around your home on Monday and do not let her in....this is why I say move the car to brother's place so she has no reason to come to your home.

Have you thought of calling the police and asking them what you should do in this situation?
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Erzoolie, charge you with autotheft?

I assume the car is right there, yes? All hers. No "unlawful taking with the intention permanently to deprive" her of her property about it.

I suppose she can have you charged with autokeytheft. Let her try it. I doubt if the judge will be terribly hard on you.

Meanwhile, if she's able to order and take delivery of replacement keys good luck to her - all you can do then is keep reporting.
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the 5th time your mother kills someone while she's driving, you'll think OP..."hmmmmmm, maybe i should stop giving her the car keys?" ?

i repeat:
how many manslaughters until you decide OP, it's better to "lose" the keys?
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"the 5th time your mother kills someone while she's driving, you'll think OP..."hmmmmmm, maybe i should stop giving her the car keys?"

That implies, if I understand correctly ... responsibility for the accident that led to the death of her friend is mine to share, as I didn't intervene/take her keys before it originally happened?

Sorry if I am angering or triggering anyone. I appreciate everyone's honesty, even when it is difficult for me to read.
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What your mother did was not your fault in any way shape or form. Do not feel guilty for something you didn't cause. Your mother sounds like a bully and always gets her way. But you don't have to continue the pattern with her and your brother who is doing moms bidding. All you have to do is with hold the keys. That's the best you can do to stop her from a legal standpoint. After May 27th if car has been towed to mom or brother gets replacement keys and takes care to mom you can report it to the poluce since you know where she will be living. If they catch her driving they will impound the car. If they don't then you did your best and tried. That's all anyone can do.

You are a good person. And good people often are casualties of selfish people like your mother who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves and what they want. And as a good person you suffer feeling guilty about things you didn't do or cause.
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I would drive mom's car to the Fullerton Police Department Impound lot and leave the keys with them.

Call the police and ask how to arrange this.

If that's not possible, park the car on the street somewhere. Lock and drop the keys in the mail to the Fullerton PD or sherrif's department.

Tell mom you lost both the car and the keys.
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Here's an article from Aging Care:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.agingcare.com/articles/amp/112307
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You can always call the PD’s emergency number, and see if they have any additional ideas for you.

In the meantime, I agree. Hide the keys. Give them to someone who is stronger emotionally than you right now. Anything but handing them over to your Mom.
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You say your mom spends about $1,000 a month on a car between her car payment and insurance.
Who's been making the car and insurance payments while your mother has been in the rehab/NH?
Don't make the payments and the dealership will repossess the car.
How would your mother even be able to drive the car if she's wheelchair bound? Or get in and out of it on her own?
Tell your brother not to take the car to her and not to help her in any way. You don't either.
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To answer your question, "Who's been making the car and insurance payments while your mother has been in the rehab/NH?" - I assume the payments are auto-deducted from her bank account.

"How would your mother even be able to drive the car if she's wheelchair bound? Or get in and out of it on her own?" - she is at this point able to get up and out of her wheelchair, and walk a wee bit with a walker. The leg that has caused this whole "chapter", however, is her right leg - so even in the best scenario, her gas/brake pedal leg is the one with the impediment. So, how can she drive? In my opinion, I don't think she can. She, of course, has a vastly different view.

I am going to focus on taking deep breaths, working with my brother to identify/examine suitable assisted living facilities, accept that I cannot control the situation altogether, and put some bubbly on ice so that I can celebrate once she is squared away somewhere safe for the long term. It's going to take several weeks, and Lord knows she isn't going to make it any easier, but - some things in life you just have to go through, you cannot go around. The only way this is ever going to happen is if I exert my competence to make sure it does. And selfishly, it will be better for me in the long run, mind/heart-wise, so ... it's worth the short-term effort in order to reach that destination, I believe.

To be clear, I will not be handing any keys to my mother - car or otherwise.

I am going to continue enforcing my boundaries and maintaining my sanity, to include 60-75 minutes every day on my Peloton to process the stress of it all. As an added benefit, I'm getting in great shape!

I hope everyone is having a pleasant Sunday ... <3
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"I am going to focus on taking deep breaths, working with my brother to identify/examine suitable assisted living facilities, accept that I cannot control the situation altogether, and put some bubbly on ice so that I can celebrate once she is squared away somewhere safe for the long term. It's going to take several weeks, and Lord knows she isn't going to make it any easier, but - some things in life you just have to go through, you cannot go around."

Just make sure that the "several weeks" does NOT include her coming back to your home. Don't trust Maria the DP if she says she will get you help. If brother accepts that kind of promise, that's on him.

Let us know what happens today. Will your mother Uber to the Fullerton motel, or will she drive her own car there? We should take bets!
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Erzoolie, (((hugs)))...will be thinking about you during what I imagine is going to be a stressful day, regardless of how it turns out.
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Thank you, All, so much!

Yesterday, I talked to the local police department about my mother and her car. I explained the situation - and they basically explained to me that, as long as (a) she is legally licensed to drive, and (b) the car belongs to her, then there is nothing they can do. They recommended I report her to the DMV, which I already did months ago.

I talked to my elder law attorney again, too. And we came up with a plan. It doesn't sit well with me, but, it seems the best I could do, given all variables.

I gave her car keys to the Director of Nursing at the SNF. They are going to be discharging her today, as my mother has refused all of the other options presented to her for respite care. My mother is going to have to sign off that she is being discharged unsafely, against doctor's orders. They will return all of her property to her, and the rest is up to her.

Thank you for the kindness and compassion. It is going to be a difficult week, even as much as I know she is only a victim of her own stubbornness, it still weighs on my heart that she is being so foolish and self-destructive. It won't change my boundary on not allowing her to come here, but ... it is just, well, sad.
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"I gave her car keys to the Director of Nursing at the SNF. They are going to be discharging her today, as my mother has refused all of the other options presented to her for respite care. My mother is going to have to sign off that she is being discharged unsafely, against doctor's orders. They will return all of her property to her, and the rest is up to her."

This is the best that you can do, and I like that you consulted an elder attorney.

Where is the car? If it's at the SNF, how did it get there?
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Erzoolie, please remember through all of this: you did the best that you could; you did all that you could. What happens from here is NOT YOUR FAULT. You can't save someone from themselves if they refuse to grab the life preservers you throw to them.
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Very sad for the Nursing Home that will be liable if mom kills anyone trying to drive. I wonder what their legal department will say about that?

Good luck today!
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Believe me, I didn't enjoy handing those keys over - to anyone. That said, they are the only people in the active "equation" who have the actual authority (legally, as it was explained to me) to deprive her the right to drive. If they hand those keys to her today, they have determined they are able to do so. As I understand, she will have to sign a form that removes them from all liability. So, as much as I don't envy that position, it is the best solution I could concoct.

Why any of the doctors who have treated her over the last several months - to include the neurologist whom I watched wave his finger in her face, telling her she should not drive again - didn't take steps to remove her driver's privilege is also equally baffling to me.

notgoodenough - thank you for those kind words. Intellectually, I know that, but emotionally, I admit to the turmoil and struggle in my heart.

<3
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EZ, take comfort in the fact that you did everything you could.

My bet is that IF your mother can get into the car, she won't make it out of the parking lot on her own.

Is your brother going to show up for discharge?
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If the car is still there it's not too late to have a friend put a jack under it and steal one of the wheels. Too bad it's not so easy to remove the battery when you don't have the keys to pop the hood.
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When do you think you will find out what your mother ended up doing today? Maria the DP isn't going to call you, right? When your mother runs into her first obstacle (no pun intended), will she call you or your brother? I guess that depends if she actually makes it to Fullerton?
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Erzoolie, we are all rooting for you and hoping that your mom lands softly.

Let us know how this goes.
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To answer your questions, I drove the car there yesterday, and gave the Director of Nursing the car key. They in fact made the medical determination yesterday that they could not prevent her from driving. I did not hear from anyone the entire day - luckily, I had a full day of work meetings to distract me. In the late afternoon, my brother texted me and just said "the cat's in the cradle". He apparently took the afternoon off of work and went to help her - charged her car, got her groceries, helped her check into the motel, etc.

My brother said she could walk "somewhat" with a walker. How can she drive? I have no idea.

So, that's where it sits now. She's in a motel, alone, not speaking to me. I'm probably already going to Hell, for other things, so I'll just go ahead and admit that being cut out of the conversation feels a bit like a blessing in disguise.

I think I might turn off my phone for the rest of the week. With the exception of calling to get some counseling for myself set up, as I think its probably wise for me to get some professional help processing all of the emotions I'm having in a healthier way.
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" They in fact made the medical determination yesterday that they could not prevent her from driving. I did not hear from anyone the entire day - luckily, I had a full day of work meetings to distract me. In the late afternoon, my brother texted me and just said "the cat's in the cradle". He apparently took the afternoon off of work and went to help her - charged her car, got her groceries, helped her check into the motel, etc.

My brother said she could walk "somewhat" with a walker. How can she drive? I have no idea.

So, that's where it sits now. She's in a motel, alone, not speaking to me."

So now your brother will be in charge of her. GREAT job in maintaining your boundaries!
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