I don't know if there is any interest in a thread like this. But I am on my third round of losing a parent (father, stepmother, now mother), and I find myself so frustrated and irritated by the religiosity that is pushed on me when I'm dealing with issues grief and death. You may know the kind I'm talking about. "They're going to a better place." Or, "You'll see them again someday!" Or, "Take comfort in god." Or, "Trust in god, this is part of his plan." I know people are usually well-meaning, but I DON'T find comfort in that at all. I find it dismissive of my own belief system, to be honest.
As it is, I have a really hard time with death. Because I don't believe that I'll see them again, my grief seems all the more devastating. It also makes me fear death far more than I did when I was a believer. I notice this in my mother too - she has never been a believer, even back when I was, and now she is hanging on to a life of suffering because it's better than ceasing to exist. I don't even know how to comfort her myself. It would be easier to deal with all this if I could just believe in some kind of afterlife, but I don't. I have wrangled with spiritual issues all my life, and my conclusion is that....I HOPE there's something, but I really don't think there is.
Anyone else in this non-believer boat and want to join me in wrangling with your own death and grief issues here? Or maybe you're a believer who doesn't know how to comfort non-believers, but would like to explore that?
(I strongly urge the religious folks on this board to avoid using this thread as an opportunity to proselytize to an already vulnerable group of people.)
I think those of us who did or do want some connection to religion or belief of some kind are seeking to fill the Belonging need. When I considered that years ago, then that need for some belief in any religion (I researched Buddhism looking for something that fit my science-based personality) fell away. That led me to accept there's no proof of a god.
I do believe there is a plane for souls, we just haven't been able to prove it. While there could be a scientific reason for real mediums aren't really connecting with spirits or souls but have instead a brain to connect with our own brains to discover our loved ones' memories. Even if that's the case, I find it comforting and not afraid of death.
Confronting people about the uselessness of their musings probably won't lead to anything good. So... I suppose we accept what is and deal with the situation one day at a time. Take care of ourselves and live to the best of our standards.
I like Windy's answer of giving the dying the kind of comfort that you know they need even if you don't share their beliefs. I also like MountainMoose's suggestion to praise them for a life well lived and to reference those who have gone on before - even if you can't bring yourself to say that the dead are waiting in heaven I suppose you can talk about imagining how wonderful it would be if they are.
Until that time, I'd just like to add that I'm one who resents and finds irritating blasé platitudes about a "better place", being with a deity, etc
I wish people would spend some time studying history, and all the civilizations which have existed before us, playing special attention to the deities they had, and how those deities changed with the various civilizations. There's so much to be gained from studying the history of religion and the deities, before religion was more codified and commercialized.
There's also a lot to be gained by studying the progress of science throughout the ages. W/o telescopes and grounded scientific theory, it's easy to try to find solace and comfort in what people experience at that time.
A very interesting theory is propounded by Dan Brown in his latest book, Origins. Following a general pattern of his earlier books, there's a lot of action, discussion, theories, speculation, around the topic which focuses on the basis: Where did we come from and where are we going?
The plot segues off though to the question of past extinction events, and whether or not another is in the future, probably well past our lifetimes, although a drastically changing event of a different nature could be on the horizon.
But the fascinating aspect is the theory that the next major event will be technological, involving Artificial Intelligence. The theory that AI can and may overtake human action, controlling in various ways, is one that really can be said to exist already. The question I think is how far it will go, and how easily or strongly humans will resist it, if we can.
Think about all the technological devices in existence today and how they're encroaching on individual decision making. Do you use Siri or whatever those home devices are that tell you what time it is? What the weather will be?
Driverless cars are already experimental. Can you imagine riding in a car over which you REALLY may have no control? Can you think of all the recalls that have occurred during the history of the auto and imagine allowing yourself to ride in a car that may have defective and dangerous components?
Can you accept that drones are becoming more popular, and that nongovernment agencies and individuals are using them? Photos and videos are already out of control with people creating them w/o any permission of the individuals who are subjects of the videos or photos, and posting them on social media, also w/o permission of the subjects.
I keep asking myself, whatever happened to individual initiative, strength and curiosity, to adaptation, to creation of music, literature, art? Will a Siri "relative" create the next Venus de Milo? The next pseudo Shakespearean masterpiece? The next Beethoven substitute?
Will adaptations of existing religions try to present solutions to a controlling tech device, especially if the devices literally become omnipotent?
I think humans are hard wired to protect and prolong their lives. This life is all we know. Death is the unknown. No one had ever come back from the grave to let us know what's going on.
(Well, there have been people describing what happened to them in a moment of death then later brought back to life. Mostly all of their experiences are "spiritual" in nature.)
We have to accept death because there is no alternative and we are powerless against it. But we're programmed for life. So it makes sense that we are comforted by our "religious" beliefs that a part of us (soul) lives on forever. We only have to worry about the "crossover" (physically dying) but it's not the end of everything or you.
Certain faiths believe that we (as souls) have always existed with God (as souls). We are either sent into a random life, are sent to a pre planned existence or we choose our time to be born and to whom. We live our human lives (with our souls), then, when our bodies give out, our souls return from whence they came (God/Heaven) to continue on.
There are many theories as to why we come into human form. One theory is that we (our souls also) are being "refined". We're supposed to learn lessons here, presumably to be more humble/grateful/God-like in the spirit realm. Even if you don't agree with that, life certainly has its experiences!
IMO, I don't believe that anyone believes 100% of everything that their "religion" teaches. I don't. But I try to stick with the things that are the best for everyone and are based out of love.
Science can neither confirm nor deny God. Science needs hard facts to prove their claims. God lives in the spiritual realm. Since we don't reside there, there would be no proving it.
The two are like oil and water, they don't mix.
There are a lot of things that we don't have "proof" of. Will the earth be here tomorrow?
For me, I don't WANT to be the highest being in my world. I'm flawed. I screw up. I can't, at times, keep it together. I WANT there to be a perfect "model" for me, someone I can look up to (no human fits that bill). I have that model because I believe in God. I don't need "proof".
Even better that my God promises me that my soul (the very essence of who I am-what makes me-ME) will be with Him and live forever.
I could comfort anyone with any spiritual/religious belief (except Satanism). It wouldn't matter to me which diety they believed in (Budda, Krishna, Mohamed, Guru Granth, etc.) But I'm still at a loss for someone who doesn't believe in anything.
This movie gives a good picture of how I previously believed the “afterlife” worked - for the part, with a God like entity as the “machine”. There’s a brief explanation in the beginning of the movie where something along the line of “the universe is
like a big machine...”
I highly recommend this film for non traditional, end-of-life thinkers. It’s a comedy with a message so an open mind and a sense of humor is required.
Unfortunately, since my fathers passing about six years ago - for multiple reasons - I pretty much have lost any “faith” that there is anything after...
And honestly I feel the same as you. I WISH I could believe. It’s a whole lot more frightening to think that in the end - it’s all ended. Period.
"Mary-Ann is laid to rest
Safe at last on Abraham's breast -
Which may be nuts for Mary-Ann
But is certainly rough on Abraham."
Well, I guess that actually does depend on which version of organized religion one needs to subscribe to. Mortal sins - seven of them, more or less - may or may not actually be forgiven and in some beliefs it can depend on ones actual contrition or a sufficient act of contrition.
Something that even as a child, I found a little fishy. I mean “so you can go through life commiting sin and as long as you ask to be forgiven right before you die you can still go to heaven?” “Yes”, my mother would answer, “but you need to be sincere”.
How convenient.
I agree, again. I spent many a chilly hour gazing at architecture while inwardly thinking "define 'truly', please." I don't think we were ever meant to believe that God is fooled by people who are just getting anxious about consequences.
Years later I stumbled over this, I think it's Chasidic but don't take my word for it and this is only from memory -
"What will the Day of Judgement be like? Only this. God will call you to him and tell you the right you did and the wrong, and that will be your heaven and your hell. But with perfect understanding comes forgiveness."
I can't tell you what comfort I found that. As someone who can't stand detective stories that don't tie up all the loose ends in proper order I would love to hope that, at some point, everything will be *explained.*
Personally I'm scared stiff of reincarnation. How cruel have I been to earwigs? - and what if vengeance really is the Lord's..?
I consider myself spiritual and am now attending church. (Grew up in church and it caused me to be unimpressed with organized religion for years.) I respect all people's faith or lack thereof. I'm not sure what I would do if I didn't have my faith....hmm.....because I pray a lot. Not just asking for help, but, giving thanks. It makes my life better and so, it's difficult for me to imagine letting that go. Oh my. What a void. And, what if I'm wrong? What if there is no afterlife? Well, I'm much happier here and what did it harm? And if I don't have faith and I'm wrong....well....I suppose God will understand, but, what about the misery here on earth. I would have missed out on his comfort. So, to each his own.
When people try to give comfort, I'd try to just consider that they mean no harm and that their heart is in the right place. (I know that sounds trite.)
It's the cards that bang on about celebrating memories and lives well-lived that worry me. I want to say to the senders "are you sure about that?!"
From now on, I'll wonder about my actions every time I vanquish an earwig, perhaps even the other garden pests. I've dispatched a few hundred ants when they decided to colonize one of my rooms. Would that mean that at sometime I'll be punished myself? Barred from ever gardening again? Horrors.
Thanks to everyone who's raising rational issues and contributing to this interesting discussion. You've made my day (and a little bitty chocolate cupcake helped too).
Honestly, I don’t know what I believe with 100% certainty. No that’s not true. I do believe the human body was designed by some superior being. It’s just way too complex a machine. One small glitch in the pumping system or electrical system and you have a major breakdown. Like a machine.
So, I guess we are a machine with a soul.
Beyond that I haven’t a clue.
I too struggle with organized religion. For example, commit awful sins, ask forgiveness, fine, you are good to go. Why not just use your brain, be honest and true, treat others as you want to be treated, I don’t know, now it sounds like religion.
Grief. I think that comes from our soul. Deaths are all different. The expected. The unexpected. The old. The young.
Comforting the dying. I have made no promises to a dying loved one I can not realistically keep. I have said I will take care of things or I will do the best I can. Loved ones that knew me understood I would do my best but everyone has their limits.
I have asked for Chaplains, Ministers, Priests, etc, for loved ones if that’s what they wanted or needed.
One of my sister-in-laws was my best friend from about age three until high school. She lived a few houses away and is just a year older than me.
My SIL was brought up Catholic- her mother is a hardcore- HARDCORE- Catholic. This woman never liked me much and the feeling is mutual. However, in the unlikely event I were to be with her in her final moments I’m confident I would be able to hold her hand and tell her everything she needs to hear about going to heaven.
And - I believe I’d be able to do it with genuine caring and compassion- with
no feeling or thought of betraying my true self. I’m not saying I’m all that - it’s just that if nothing else, being my own parents caregiver/care manager has taught me a thing or two - hopefully- about being a more compassionate person.
I was terrified of death when I was young. Who will take care of my kids? Now after seeing death and realizing there is certainly a time for death, I no longer fear death. I don’t fear where I will end up when my body ( the ( the machine) dies. I guess my soul or spirit may go somewhere.
We face so many unknowns during our lives. I assume our destination is truly one of those unknowns. I hope I will have lived a decent enough life that my soul lands in a pleasant destination if it continues after death.
I hope this isn’t offensive but my Dad once said he hoped he didn’t end up at the big “BarBque down below”. I would like to avoid that scenario.
And on a practical point, any one of us may find it useful to know that in an emergency *anyone* can baptise a person - you don't have to be a Christian, even. If somebody in extremis suddenly wants to profess faith, or wants their dying infant admitted, all you need is some water and the words "I baptise you in the name of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." None of your business whether it has meaning or not, the important thing is that it comforts them - I couldn't agree more, CW.
I have a cousin who conducts humanist funerals. I haven't been to one, to be fair, and he may make a fine job of it and have very satisfied customers - presumably he must, in fact, because he's been doing it for years, ever since he left his wife and retired from banking.
But quite frankly I think I'd rather have Torquemada or Ayatollah Khomeini at mine than leave it to him to spread comfort.
Side note: When her son and daughter poured her ashes over the cliff, the updraft ended up coating all of us! Not gross, but for me rather comforting. I miss her very much.
Wasn’t sure if there really is a dog...
I find what you write very comforting. I have to agree with you, I can use all the blessings and prayers people are willing to give even though I'm not sure myself.
I’m scared of the inevitable, the one thing I cannot control or get out of no matter how hard I may try. That realization hit me when I was in 6th grade and never left me.
It is very hard to comfort someone dying but so far the people I’ve experienced, my dad, my uncle, my brother...they were excepting and “ready” so it was really me who needed to comforting.
Google Marcia Montenegro-CANA. She really opened my eyes and gave me a big WOW!!! Burned lots of books and got rid of tons of junk that pertain to new age.
I'll probably get a lot of criticism for this but I don't care.
Beautiful post SueC1957!