Can adult protective services get the law involved if the victim isn't interested?

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Can adult protective services get the law involved if the victim isn't interested?

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My grandma was contacted and is being investigated by adult services for financial abuse. Her bank is claiming me and my mother have misused her bank account. I have told them a portion of the money is what my grandmother loaned me for some custody legal fees for my daughter and I am paying her back with my tax return. They are still being pushy and continuing the investigation. They've gotten my grandma to revoke POA from my mother by getting her confused. She has early stage Alzheimer's but is still able to drive and care for herself everyday.

Alzheimer's & Dementia Elder Abuse Elder Law

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It sounds like the bank is just trying to do their job. However it also seems like they are not listening to her wishes, and likely because they seem to know her medical situation, they may be using her diagnosis to retain control. An attorney should be spoken to as soon as possible. However let me offer another bit of advice, if your mom is truly to be allowed to handle the banking there is another solution / option to consider. When my mother was diagnosed with Leukemia, we went straight to the bank and I was added as a third account owner on my parent's account. As an account owner, I am able to pay bills do grocery shopping, and get cash if I need it for anything to take care of her and my Dad. As an account owner, there is nothing the bank can do against me when managing the money, it is as much mine as it is theirs. They chose to do this because they expressly trust me to do what is right for them, and now that Mom has passed, Dad has kept me on the account, and I continue to do the shopping and pay the bills to help him. It is a way to stop the bank's interference with my parents hard earned money and what they choose to do with it. I do not suggest this route unless the elder person expressly trusts the person to be added, and that person must be extremely protective and careful with the accounts. This means locking up ALL banking materials, and keeping a close eye on accounts. Because when someone gets sick, skeevy family vultures come out of the woodwork.

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Is there information here about what amount was loaned to granddaughter? I don't find it. Is that the only transaction in question or are there others?

If APS becomes involved it is easy for them to get a court order for disclosure of financial records. They can do it on an emergency basis, a matter of days. It is always best to cooperate with them. Not doing so only raises red flags.

When I was investigated it was actually a relief. I thought that finally the allegations and accusations from twisteds would finally stop. 😄😄 Of course they didn't oh those twisted minds were certain that the pros must be wrong.

Oh those dysfunctional families...

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No don't let aps in your money. The only one that will see my moms is a judge or jury. They lie and make u feel like a criminal.

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I don't think you have a choice whether APS sees the bank account or not if the bank call APS. Although I'm not sure. I do agree (and I've heard stories) that APS may jump too quickly and take actions that are not warranted in some situations, and also the bank may take unnecessary actions as well. I could forsee myself, say I was the Grandma in the OP and I fully wanted to help a family member out and the bank did what it did, I would march down and raise holy you know what and possibly withdraw all my money and take my business elsewhere.

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One more thought, in defense of what was done (but it probably should have been done in writing, given grandma has early ALZ) is that someone can gift money to anyone. Playing devil's advocate here:

If grandma, in this case, is still deemed competent (I see that she passed the written and driving tests as well as being deemed competent enough to be talked into revoking the POA, under duress or not - they still deemed her competent to do this), grandma could direct her POA to gift money. There is nothing illegal in that. It is not a wise idea, esp if funds are limited, because if she ever needed Medicaid that would play against her.

My point is why would the bank and APS assume financial abuse off the bat? No idea how much money was involved and there seems to be more than just the granddaughter loan, but if grandma wants to gift money and tells POA to do it, she can. POA could override this if deemed unwise to proceed. If she does proceed, it is always best to CYA by getting something in writing, notarized (can't hurt to query the attorney who drew up the POA as well.)

My mother was giving each of us money (under the IRS limit for tax-free gifting) before the dementia started. When I realized she was having cognitive issues, I said NO to her doing it again (she was going to, and OB was eager to get his next 'installment'. I figured we needed to preserve whatever she had at that point, so that there would be funds to cover a facility when it was needed. This was the best idea and so far she has enough funds for years to come! BTW she's 96 now - hopefully the trust will outlast her!)

While typing all that, I recall that on taking over mom's finances, I wanted all the eggs in one basket, to make the task easier for me to manage. She had a second account at a local bank, for easier access if she needed cash. I was NOT on the account and never did business with them (so they didn't know me at all.) I took her and the DPOA document to the bank and was able to withdraw all the funds (by bank check and it wasn't pocket change!) and close the account. Mom just stood there rifling through her wallet and purse - she never said a word and wasn't asked anything. I then took her to the CU to deposit this into her primary account. I didn't take anything from it, but that first bank had no idea what I would be doing with the money and never asked. I never heard a word about it! Of course I could show it was deposited to her account and used for her benefit, but still.... The bank never said a word and no APS stuck their nose into the business! Funny (odd) too because I have read so many comments from people who complain that banks won't honor the POA documents.

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Band could want to get involved because the facts surrounding the situation do look suspicious. Bank has a fiduciary responsibility and should report.

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Yes, of course they can. And especially if the alleged victim has Alzheimer's Disease and the allegation is one of financial abuse on the part of the alleged victim's POA.

I hope you have very strong and well-documented evidence that your grandmother authorised the loan to you voluntarily and understands how and when it is to be repaid to her.

What other money is it alleged has been misused?

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You asked basically if APS can proceed even if the person involved doesn't want them to Yes. They are there to PROTECT the person. A complaint made will be investigated. The APS has the power of the law behind them. That is to say, if they suspect abuse they will see to it that POA is removed and given to someone competent to handle it or to the State in the form of guardianship. At the point guardianship by the state comes in, the family of someone with dementia will quite honestly have input, but nothing to say or decide really; the state will be in control.
Anyone with POA for finances is required to keep careful and meticulous records. Taking a loan from someone whose finances you are handling, especially if that someone is even mildly impaired, is a real no-no, and if it is done for some reason it should be overseen by a lawyer with clear written contract.
Hope you will be able to work it out for what is best for everyone.

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A couple of questions come to mind immediately (1) "a portion of the money" as you have written was for you, what about the rest? Do you have any receipts on what it was spent on? and (2) Have you contacted an elder law attorney -- or the one that set up the POA? You need to answer both of these. As I was mother's DPOA and MDPOA for years, I had complete access to her bank account. HOWEVER, I could not do "whatever" I pleased. I was required to keep records of all expenses, which by the way came in real handy at Income Tax Time. If your grandmother was in agreement with the withdrawal, perhaps getting a letter signed by her (AND NOTORIZED) might be helpful for Adult Services.

Depending on the level of Alzheimer's she is in, will also dictate whether or not anyone but her can have a POA changed. If activated, the POA was necessary, then a simple letter from her Doctor should help in resolving this issue. I believe that most POA documents state all the responsibilities and legal rights over the bank account. Read it - What you and your mother did just may be illegal. Get the #$$$ paid back as quickly as possible.

Good luck. POA's are never easy and need to be followed to the letter.

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Concernedcake: Glad that you saw an attorney.

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Concerned,
I'm also responding to your reply below... Thanks for jumping back in. Like I said, there are often gray areas regarding things we see as black-and-white. In our defense, we only know what we can infer from your posts. This seems like an awful experience for you, your mom, and your grandma, so I hope you've at least learned that getting things in writing up-front can save you a lot of headaches down the road.

One thing still confuses me, though. If your grandmother is unable to act on her own behalf and vouch for the withdrawal with her bank, how is she capable of revoking her POA? Can't have it both ways, I would think. I feel like I'm still missing something, so I definitely agree with mstrbill and suggest consulting a lawyer.

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I've reached out to a attorney. And yes I don't know how they did the power of attorney revoke but I've just seen the form. My grandma tells me she didn't understand what she was signing because they had her so confused and upset

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Concernedcake, I'm responding to your reply below. Your Grandma (and or you and Mom) needs to consult an attorney ASAP. You need to have a third party involved here to fight for what Grandma wants to see happen. Don't wait.

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FYI... Most POA's address gifts and what the POA is allowed to use the money for. You are entrusted to be financially responsible and use good judgment in how the money is spent. You can't take a 2 wk vacation and have her pay for everything even if she goes with you. She can pay for 1/2 but not your part. That's not you being a good steward of her assets. And it's illegal if that sort of vacation is some thing out of character for her.
"If You always do the right thing then you will never have anything to worry about".

I am my dad's guardian and I am accountable to the Court for every PENNY of his money - and they review his financials annually. It's stressful, keeping up with everything, but his money will go for what he needs. period. that's the way it should be - it's his money- not mine.

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Is there a statute of limitations on these cases? I was just wondering...if money isn’t paid back. What if the elderly person dies, can other family members sue for the money? Suppose they need the money to bury the person or do house repairs to sell property. Can an injustice be pursued by their next of kin?

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its possible because it would then become a debt owed to the estate. I would hope if her assets were that little no one would have even asked for a loan.

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My first thought is that if the bank didn't think you were taking advantage of her what's in it for them to pursue this with APS? and yes, APS will investigate and if they believe there is abuse there they will refer it to law enforcement. if your gtandma hasnt been declared incompetent then she can do whatever she wants w/ her POA. I suggest you pay her back every penny you borrowed and with a bank check made out to her from you, and note that it was payment in full for a loan so there's no question you paid it all back. I don't think it's likely that 1 transaction caused the bank to contact APS. I also think your mom could have been doing things you don't even know about. Only you and her know for sure. Protect yourself. This is serious business. APS will take it seriously because the report came from the bank who has no axe to grind by a false accusation. Be Smart.

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I'm pretty sure the bank was not the original complaintant. Anyone can make a complaint to APS. In my case, the banks were contacted by APS after the complaint was filed by spiteful brother.

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Is the power of attorney in effect at this point?

This is a family affair and your grandmother's money to do as she pleases, whether it's to loan you money or not. If she is at the early stages, if she understands and consents, then that is her right. It is not unusual for custody legal fees to come from family or friends.

It's always best to have some written contract. If there is not one, then it's between the two of you to agree on a payment plan if that was the understanding. Otherwise, the money more likely would be considered a gift. This is not a bad thing because you are her grandchild protecting your child.

My concern is that APS and police may seem like the authority which your grandmother may rely on, however she may need her lawyer to trust in this situation. If your grandmother's choice of poa is revoked, was this done fairly to her. Did this just require your mother or you to formalize agreements in her best interest.

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IMHO, you need an elder law attorney.

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I almost drove myself to bankruptcy taking care of my mother in her own home. I was so terrified of all the stories of elder abuse that I never asked for a penny for her food, meds, laundry, transportation, etc, etc. Now I wish had been more assertive, gotten a lawyer and showed him/her what I was spending. Because of her mental condition, she thought things "magically" appeared. I am sure if I had confronted her with what I was spending, I would have been accused of something illegal.

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MaryKathleen, I got a real kick out of the baby reference.

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If you do start paying Grandma back, be sure there is a very good paper trail that will protect you and your mother to show APS that you are indeed paying her back. Talk to an Elder Law Attorney ASAP.

Several years ago I loaned my Son-n-Law some money, It was done on paper with a payment schedule written in and I charged him minimal interest. He didn't finish paying me back. I still have the paperwork and will never loan him another dime. If he asks why, I still have that paper work to show him.

You know the old picture of a baby sitting on a potty with the words, "No job is finished until the paperwork is done".

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Concernedcake,
You still there? I know some of the responses may have been difficult to hear, but this is a touchy subject for a lot of members; and it is absolutely black-and-white (except when it isn't). I think a great thing about this forum is that people can learn from other people's successes or failures, so I would love to hear more details on what's going on.

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Yes I'm still here no updates on anything yet. My grandmother feels the adult service people are purposely trying to confuse her and asking questions she doesn't quite understand just to make a point. She knows what we agreed and I have the money on me now to repay her but I'm afraid to even go to her bank and them think I'm trying to do something bad.. They got her alone and confused her so much she signed a poa revoke form without even realizing what she had done and now is so upset she feels she was tricked by them

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Are you absolutely sure it was the bank that called APS? Anyone can make an anonymous call & report something. Could a relative be upset that you borrowed the money?

The way to do a legal loan when a POA is involved is to have it in writing, minimal interest rate IS to be paid, and the loan is to start being repaid in 30 days. Per our elder care attorney here in GA. That also stands up to Medicaid scrutiny.

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The police steps in if someone voiced vulnerable person abuse, daughter or no daughter. If there is money landed to you while the person was sick it would be a reason for concern. I would return it asap. POA does not give you access to use funds (and borrowing from a sick person does not look good), it just states that you have been trusted to help the individual.

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If this bank account is not joint between your mother and grandmother, your mother could also be charged with misappropriation of funds and you could be charged with accessory after the fact. This could mean a felony charge if the amount is substantial, depending on state statute. Whatever the situation, your mother mishandled the withdrawal of the funds against her DPOA responsibilities. Taking away her authority to manage your grandmother's assets was the appropriate course of action. In your case, pay back all that you borrowed as soon as possible.

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If it is a joint account isn’t it still the mom’s money? Does that make a big difference legally? Morally, it’s mom’s money even if the daughter has access to use for paying bills, etc.

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This is really tricky, and I agree with everyone here. Even when you are doing what she instructed you to do it On her behalf (no loans to anyone) can be called into question. I’m living this now.
Her money used for her. Think about that why would anyone agree to being a POA for an ALZ LO?

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Yes, they can continue to "push". POAs are for managing finances to the elder's financial needs... not yours. It will appear as if you and mom swindled your gram out of her money. I agree with others. Should have had a written agreement. Maybe start paying back a little every month and finish with your tax refund.

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Lessons here for all - think twice and consult with EC atty before considering doing something like this. Even if grandma agrees and mom does the "POA" thing, it would be best to have a legal document specifying the terms of the "loan." CYA!

Would it not have been better (hindsight) to borrow from mom and pay her back? Can you do that now, to get them off your back? Another option is often credit cards offer balance transfers, many with a low fee (go for the ones that give you time, no interest and just a fee - I have done this to help my daughter, she transfers money to me to pay the monthly amounts. Typically they charge 3-5% upfront and no interest, while some have no fee no interest.) Waiting for the tax return, assuming what you get will be enough to cover the entire loan, could take some time. (BTW, grandma has plenty in her trust fund, but I would NEVER take anything from there to help my daughter out, even if "grandma" approved! I really don't even take anything other than occasionally gas money for managing everything for her - finances, medical care, meds and OTC needs, even though I have POA - EC atty, when I said POA does not say I can take money for doing all this, replied it doesn't say I can't, but personally I would not consider it! I could certainly use a "loan" to get my house repairs finished and pay it back when my funds are available, but I will NOT.)

There are also concerns about her driving. You say "She has early stage Alzheimer's but is still able to drive and care for herself everyday." The problems here are 1) if she gets into an accident, insurance could deny payment(s) and 2) there is no way to determine the timeline of any kind of dementia - some progress faster than others, and there are NO warning signs when the next "stage" will be. While our mother was in early stage, she was "able" to care for herself, but there were many things she wasn't able to do and she lived alone, so we couldn't see the full impact. When she reported a flat tire and I found it split from the rim to the ground, metal around wheel well bent half off, consult with YB and we worked on taking it away before she hurt/killed herself or someone else. Around that time (needed to take her grocery shopping is when I realized she was not cooking anymore, relying on boxed crap and frozen dinners. So, although someone "appears" able to drive and care for themselves, appearances can be deceptive! I would seriously consider getting her off the road.

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Good point about not borrowing from trust. One of my brothers was going thru a messy divorce & wanted to borrow from Mom’s trust (Mom had dementia). Sister & I, co-POAs, said absolutely not. He understood and found another way.

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You say "a portion of the money". What was the "other" portion for? Sounds like a large amount if the bank is involved. Sounds like things were not put in writing, which creates even more problems. At this point it's a "she said, she said" scenario. Hire an elder law attorney ASAP. JMO and good luck.

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You can't dabble with grandma's money. You don't want to cast any doubt when she has to apply for Medicaid and they do the five year look back. What if she has a stroke today and has to go to a nursing home and you haven't got the money to pay her back right away. Medicaid would penalize her for that "gift/loan". Meaning they will not financially cover a portion of her care.

As POA your mother is responsible for making wise decisions that are in your grandmothers best interest. Loaning you money is not in your grandmothers best interest.

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The loan was my grandmothers idea not my mother's. She insisted but even with her saying she agreed and her not being fully incompetent adult services are still being pushy

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Unless the Durable Power of Attorney specifies that your mother is authorized to withdraw funds from your grandmother's account to loan out to a family member, your mother is in violation of financial abuse and fraud. Your grandmother may have verbally authorized the loan, but without a signed I.O.U. that has been witnessed or notarized by a neutral third party, it can be deemed misuse of her funds. This is a good lesson learned about what a DPOA can and cannot do with someone's assets.

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GET AN ATTORNEY.

The County can take you to Court and appoint a conservator (expensive -- and your grandma pays).

As she is still driving with Alzheimer's, the Courty can also appoint a guardian to stop her and to make sure she is cared for.

GET AN ATTORNEY.

National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys
https://www.naela.org/findlawyer
<naela@naela.org>
NAELA Council of Advanced Practitioners
1577 Spring Hill Rd., Suite 310
Vienna, VA 22182
703-942-5711
<naela@naela.org>

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Agreed, I've heard enough horror stories about conservatorships, I agree an attorney is warranted.

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I'm going to stir the pot a little here (sorry not sorry) as I find some of the responses here a little silly. Granted we don't know the fine details in this case and what really was discussed and agreed upon between the family members, but it's perfectly normal and reasonable in many families to loan or help other family members out financially when needed. Many Grandparents are happy and willing to help their family when needed. Some explicitly give away (maybe feeling the inheritance would do them better now than later). They don't think about or even know anything about Medicaid laws and gifting. The case here could easily be innocent and mutually transactional in nature in which case if Grandma were strong enough, she could raise wholly hell with the bank and APS and the courts if it ever got that far.

If she does have mild dementia, I would advise OP to have Grandma hire an attorney to fight for the her and the family. Assuming the transaction was as innocent as described.

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Mstrbill, I do not think it would have been a problem if the POA had not been activated. If it was activated, it is because a doctor thought Gma was no longer capable of making sound decisions.

That the bank in their due diligence reported that after Mum had POA on Gma's accounts, an unusually large sum was removed from Gma's account, is a good thing.

OP should be hiring her low lawyer to help her. To have Gma's funds used to hire a lawyer to defend OP is once again misuse of her funds and digging a bigger hole.

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Can adult protective services get the law involved if the victim isn't interested?

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