When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

emjo, thank you, thank you, thank you! What a lovely post! When possible, I don't share where I am with NM and NB and usually it is easy because we live in different ...continents. So when I went to S. Carolina for a week with DH, they didn't know. They don't know and they don't ask about me and my loved ones in any meaningful way. They might say: oh hi; how are things? All well? To which I reply: all well, thanks. And then we proceed to talk about them. emjo, your mother is similar to mine and to several other NM here it seems. Imagine ruining your chance to visit with your son like that! Goodness! What a great idea to not tell them about G! Yay! Good for you! Thank you so much for your kind thoughts and our encouragement. You're right about my husband. He's the kind of person who is very patient and giving and he never raises his voice. It takes a lot for him to "write off" someone from his life and it hasn't happened for anyone, except my mother and brother. He lasted 40 years!!! If his family was like that, I don't know if I'd been as kind as he was.
I don't know if this helps others, but this is what I've been doing the past few weeks: since I'm so prone to feel obligation and guilt and so easy to manipulate, especially when they cry or when they (say they) are sick, I decided to write down some of the terrible things my mother and brother have done/said to me. I

I posted by accident; I'm continuing:
It's hard to write these things down because when I remember, I get very angry. But I think I need to get a bit angry. So from now on, every time the say something weird, I'll read my notes and remind myself about the horrific lies and bad behavior of the past, and take heart; before I start changing vacation plans and running to their help, I'll read my notes and wait before rushing to their side. Hugs

Countrymouse, LOL The Wrath of God thing! Both my mother and brother are doing this and brother can be physically abusive; even mother when she was younger!

rena - good advice to yourself. During my next to last visit to a counsellor about mother - only a couple of years ago, I said I needed reminders of how bad things were and could get. Aging Care and people like yourself help me with that. I need to read and re read that quote about narcs being exploitive. The trouble is we are normal so we want to react/respond as we would to a normal person. But, all that does is get us in trouble with the narcs. That is why I say acceptance is key. Until you have convinced yourself that they are abnormal - through and through abnormal, you keep wanting to have normal interactions with them and expect "normal" from them. My sis was so pleasant to me on the phone when she first came over last winter. Then she turned on me. I will not make that mistake again. Your husband is a wonder. You did very well marrying him. G is a kind person too, and supportive. He doesn't quite get it all yet, but is learning.

Re anger. I do think you need to feel the anger to heal. I went through a period some years ago of writing things out from the past and feeling my anger. I have shared much on here about how my mother and sis have treated me. It reinforces to me that I need to care for myself, and to be kind to me, as they have been anything but, and will be anything but. I think you have a good plan and you also have our support here. Others have posted here when facing a crisis with a narc and have received good advice and put it into practice. We are here to support you! I felt so alone as a child and for years dealing with the family narcs. Last year, I finally told a counsellor the dreadful thing mother said to me as a teenager that I had not told anyone. It was too shameful. It was good to get it out.

I am sorry you have had physical abuse too. I had a little of it and was afraid of mother physically for a while. (((((hugs))))

cm - mini narc sil may get worse as she ages. I hope not... but anyone know with narc tendencies has not gotten better.

Cm, I know...crazy to respond like that but by that night, I was flat exhausted and worried about DH so my brain wasn't totally processing. DH hugged me and said " honey, it may be a stroke but if it is, you didn't do it." On the way to the hospital, I was talking long distance to my sister who was reassuring but also started to laugh and said do you realize how silly that sounds. By the time I hit the ER, I was fine and able to deal with all the Mama drama including I don't need this oxygen mask, I've lived a long life. Btw, a few years ago, I started countering the sudden headache with an offer of Tylenol.....

Thank heavens for you all...it's a huge help to have people who really get this dysfunctional, completely unreasonable bat s**t crazy mother/ daughter dynamic.

Over my lifetime I learned never to tell my narc mother much about my life or accept anything from her as, down the road, she'd rub my nose in it. Now 88, in a NH, the parkinsons, dementia and strokes have knocked the stuffing out of her, along with my ripping into her a month ago when she was in one of her usual b*tch fests. For the past month or two she's been reasonable and pleasant.

She barely eats and sleeps most of the time and I doubt she'll last another year but now I'm able to share a little of my life with her. That we'll come to the end in a more pleasant way is helping me rid myself of as lifetime of FOG. Told her I have a friend coming for the weekend. Haven't seen her in 25 years but we've always kept in touch and mother was delighted.

This past week I've run her errands, installed a bird feeder and flower basket outside her window and done her nails. Next week my bathroom is being renovated so there will be chaos. I visit about once a week now, the pressure has eased and I'm starting to regain my health.

Linda...get the book " You're not Crazy, it's your Mother". It is very helpful!
Ashlynne - my hairdresser is experiencing the same thing with her mother. She had her in her home for 5 years, then finally had to mover her in AL. She was abusive and she had no sibling help (sound familiar everyone). In the last 2 months she has finally gotten to the point of no fight left - she tells my friend every time she comes that she loves her. My friend is so relieved that her passing will be a left on a positive note rather than that ugly narc behavior. It sounds like maybe your mother is at peace a little , which means you can also relax and enjoy your life a little. Nice to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

I went and saw my councilor last week and discussed my daughters last scud missile - feeling better but still no word from her. My mother is strangely quiet...no emails. No news is good news right? We got a call from our son who just left for Alaska - working 21 hour shifts - slave ship! Don't think he will do it for 4 months!

I hope all the fathers out there had a nice Father's Day!

Sad1, I'm reading not-nice things about that book. Don't get sucked in to anything, will you?

Country mouse - I read it per my councilor suggestion - I too had read not great reviews - but like any of these type of self help books - you take what applies to you and the rest with a grain of salut. For me - the "flying monkey" reference was not only eye opening - and a great visual - but hilarious when my mother had her huge tantrum with my husband and she got water splashed on her from trying to throw it at my husband - she recoiled and all I could think if was "I'm melting....!" Hahahahaha - I needed that! I guess it really depends on how each of our mothers are to us...my mother is a " shame and blame" type. This book addresses it pretty well.

Grain of salt! Lol - auto correct!

CM, Sad -- I read the book too, and the author's personal story and her insight into BPD/Narc mothers really resonated with me, and helped me immensely. Having said that, she devotes I'd say a good 50% of the book to promoting a type of therapy that she swears by, called EFT. I also think there's some ethical questions because she earns income by selling EFT programs. If you look up EFT, it's not a cult, or drug. It's a method for dealing with PTSD, trauma, etc. Some consider it quackery, some think its roots are valid (Eastern medicine), but there's only anecdotal evidence that it's effective. The author does imply that for her, it's been her personal savior, and that got to be a bit much for me.

My friend's visit went extremely well. Apart from having computer probs the past 3 hours and continuing to spray and launder to get rid of the current flea problem, the NH director called me and said my mother couldn't have her bird feeder, flower basket or anything outside her window "because it interferes with the lawn mower (ever heard of a weed whacker Sunshine???) and they've had them in the past and afraid they will blow over and break a window .,, blah, blah, blah. He was asking my permission to move it to a flower bed "where she can see it if she's at the window in her wheelchair". With what? binoculars? I responded "I have a choice?", umm well, nope, so quit bothering me!

Mommie Dearest has been the narc mother from h*ll my whole life but these days she's just a sad little shell, mostly in bed, from where she could see the birds on the feeder and the basket of flowers I put up outside her window. My mother deteriorates terribly day by day and may not have much time left.. The birds and flowers are all she has left. To say the least I am totally livid.

Think I'll have a glass or two of wine and nap. On waking I may feel less like turning into an axe murderer! Dammit, it's the principle of the thing!!

Rant over and thanks for letting me vent!

1. Book here, sorry. My hobbled mind sees this sunlight in you dear people. I want to believe that coming out is a good thing, so will go for broke like a selfish child, because I may not be able to write again for awhile if a Family Drama happens. Wishing I could shorten my posts, but cannot. So I’ll parse it:

Paragraph 2 Biographical
Paragraph 3 Hauntings
Paragraph 4 May-December Marriage
Paragraph 5 poor and dysfunctional poetry that I hope describes what hit me like bricks on my visitation to the family home, with still heart-beating parent well aware of all of his declines.
Paragraph 6 My guilt.

2. I’ve been visiting my other-UniVerse with my 93-year-old Dad in affluent community (used to be, now decrepit as in suburb of Detroit). I get no money from his success, because I was disowned years ago by Mom. Dad a Mickey Rooney look-alike, but bent 180 from Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus and probably lobotomized from PTSD WWII “Nuclear Occupation” (two weeks after the bomb, though military websites disclaim such a thing happened). Battle Creek, MI famous physician for lobotomy treatment. There is a temple scar. But perhaps the scar may have been from the Ford Proving Ground when he was riding 2nd as an engineer but got hit head-on because the driver was drunk. Dad, in his honor, declined Ford Motor Company’s offer to pay him off for life. Instead, Dad said “Forget it” – as there was honor in the old days. [I have written to Ford and the National Archives for release of these medical records, but this is a very sensitive area.] But his innate intelligence/Asperger’s/Epilespy-Engineer moxy gave him $$$ during prime years. Now, home and body decaying. I am caretaker of his home and body, and maybe occasionally and cruelly allow a bit of soul – but there’s a natural protection and aversion and a natural guilt that is near-incestuous “latter day wife,” as I have been trained for since birth by my BPD/malicious narcissist mother,to take care of EVERYTHING. Mom is forgiven, totally, as she DID LOVE AS BEST SHE COULD, and was 1st generation from a Russian father who probably (we can only guess) did unspeakable things to her, while dressing her “couture” because he was an amazing Detroit tailor (trained in Moscow and then fled for WWI US Army), and you cannot imagine the horror of unknown grandfather’s life (Cossacks raiding villages and heads cut off). Dad cannot talk much (maybe had epilepsy and/or traumatic brain dementia since I was a child, as never more than one-word replies and those seldom). But when he does, a look in his eyes, his mouth gaping, knowing there is something, something, he is aware of looking at me, looking as a dying soldier on the field -- then saying “Forget it,” and shaking his head. I encourage him, our eyes meet, but there are no words.

3. He would have given the shirt and home and savings off his back for any one of us -- that means you and I who post here – just because it means something to me, his child. Now, I recoil at the incontinence and urine smell at home. I can’t wait to leave, even though I cry all the way during my 3 hour drive back to my own home, with 82-year-old dear husband who is declining. We pay two shifts of caregivers $50K/year, because we live so far away, because Mom stung us continually and they never allowed the word “future” as they were financially blessed by good times and never dreamed it would end. Dad is from another generation that stood up for everything thrown his way. So his pride and minimal functionality means he can stay home til there is a huge problem. So now Sis and I try to balance the guilt of Dad, even though Mom probably more intended the guilt for her. Dad deserves better (i.e., old world living together). But my husband will not allow it – which is wise according to so many of you. My husband is declining, and May-December means many years when we could have vacationed, instead, I flew 3000 miles to Mom and Dads for two weeks at a time (Rena, you are so much more a saint than I, in fact I don’t know of anyone who did what you did). Husband was always understanding, though tormented that never, ever ONCE did Mom and Dad say “stay home as a blizzard is going to happen,” or “you need your rest” (I have lymphoma).

4. I need to start a “May-December marriage” thread but this thread is so fervent I can’t handle another stream in.

5. When at Dad’s, here’s what hit me hard. My BPD/malicious narcissist Mom died in late 2010 “without a word nor trinket of a memory or thought about her children,” however, she left 30-days worth of desiccated poops, wrapped very carefully in their luxurious oversized bath towels, and she ate upon a jumbo shrimp takeout ($25 delivery fee) the day before admitted to hospital. I had visited two days before, not knowing she weighed 65 pounds (she wore very glamorous robes and ordered a gusty expensive takeout). Not knowing anything about UTIs (parents hated doctors, as Russian and hard-Swiss grandfather did). Mom seemed “normal.” Poetry (that’s stretching it), is all I can write right now:

Psychic neuroma – She stretched for the stars, and slayed all in the path [almost 100% precision].
I took on her heroic wrath,
She and I were one.
A Golden Child, her favor de-graced
By momentariums of siblings erased (snuffed)
Brother and sister, both large and small
Her brain-screen-tether, they sputum’s life gall
Rescue in rescue out, she was always more stout
Though now there is nothing at all. POOF.

Liz Taylor in V. Wolf, maybe had taste of De Guilt
As elders grapple youth’s jilt
That never quits, no matter our wits,
Forever heave guiding stilts / guilts / wilts … whatever rhymes.

Infant, I breathed with Mom, for life and light
She met my need with wrath and fight
She slayed all coming in
It all a sin
Now I wrestle her might and her [sting].

The sting is love from a wounded one
The sting equal in both guilt and sun
Cling to precious good times, like these horrible rhymes
Without which there’s no grounding gun.
(Brother shot at parents frequently)

I grieve with guilt, I know better, but it’s my programming since infancy’s “Oxytosin” (and anyone with PTSD). I can “take a character” that distances myself, but then during sleep I am robbed of sleep.

6. Did any of you see the PBS on the lioness, walking away from her mortally wounded cub that dragged its injured back legs, Tigress emitting a mournful groul? That is Mom and I, and now my surviving family. Sis gets it. The lioness’ life was simple. Mine is not. When I walk away, I cannot sleep. I get nauseated. When I do affirmations, I go crazy (can’t focus on ADLs). I need to balance the guilt with the need for rest, with an ailing husband, with a not-totally-gone father whose soul I see in spite of the incontinence and inability to articulate words. Now that Mom is gone, I cannot “distance myself” like I could when she was alive. I am left with her wreckage and wrath, and even the little microns of her embryonic love. The injuries of the ill-will she wished on my family, because we and life broke her of joy. All are stung senseless, looking out at a cruel night sky. I am the caretaker of all. Romeo and Juliet: “All are Punished.”

Or is that just enabling kind of thinking? I already walked away from my alcoholic brother’s violent death drama, and picked up his morbid pieces, literally and figuratively for 30 years. Mom’s violent death drama (she wrote and said “not long now” but she was always saying that), with her mightily stained carpets from body fluids and up-chucked organs, seeping to “show me what I did to her “ (I think of Jackie Kennedy consciously wearing her pink suit to show America what they did to her husband.) Flipping and flopping in words and conscience. Am I of the Me Generation? Or are we the Me Generation because medical science has created long lives and incredible education and social networking created more manipulation and sophistication about guilt? Are long lives, with the spark of consciousness underneath the decline – our own soul evolving that we should stretch to precociously understand for the sake of those who survive us? Though it kills us. NOOOOO. Wouldn’t a Marine do that, stand up? Rena, Ashley, Sad1, Countrymouse, and the rest of you who I read and weep with. Is that what we are wrestling with, standing up to the Marines in a world of nearly-touchable Yoga?

I hit "send" and now wish I didn't. Apologizes to anyone who is, was or knows a Marine -- I didn't mean my analogy disrespectfully, nor to suggest I ever, ever faced what they face. I meant "stand up to a Marine" because my Mom was one.

I am sorry for my long ramble yesterday. I was having a little breakdown and panic after re-entry from Dad's. I don't think I'll be doing that again. Your patience is so very appreciated.

My friend is a social worker Lciw (did I get that right?). Anyway she did some EFT on me and I found it extremely helpful! It released a lot of painful emotions and it felt great to feel them come to light and become lighter!

I think we have to decide are we willing to leave this attachment to our own trauma behind? What can we do and what are we willing to do to be free at last and become more compassionate people without the bitterness and hurt. It's a toughie, I know!!!

I felt compassion for my mother today. I saw her struggling with her declining health, I saw how she tried to manipulate people today, I heard her unkind words and also her "thank you"s. She teeters on the edge of depression and stumbles like a broken warrior. Her shield is guilt, wit, and denial. She knows the power of her big hazel eyes the way a begging dog knows she'll get your supper.
I tried to hug her but she had no feelings for me. She is totally at sea in her smallest self.

Today I will pray for her miraculous moment of love and peace that might someday overtake her fears, feeling some comfort myself in the act of praying.

Juddhabuddhaboo, thank you so much for sharing about EFT, I hadn't heard of it. I love your question of "attachment to our own trauma." Though I WANT to, I can't. You've given me a lot, to turn to, which couldn't have been easy. Thank you for sharing this!

My councilor does EMDR which I think may be similar. It is wonderful and has helped me tremendously! Actually going today to do some "clearing" to better deal with my daughter! It is used for PTSD and being raised by a narcissist certainly can cause some of that! She describes it as a reset button for your brain to stop you from doing what you have been programmed to do...

So quick daughter update, quite sure it is a BPD she has and my middle son and wife just visited with her. He came back with some amazing stories...emphasis on stories. My daughter was telling them about "her" childhood - um, my son was there too, and they are completely fabricated. No wonder her husband and family don't like us...they think we are child abusers! She had always had a problem with lying - but I truly thought she had grown out of it. She said some crazy things! And she has been going to counseling for 4 years and I think she has her councilor completely buffaloed. At a young age she was a master manipulator - now I am afraid for my grandsons. I need to get strong and shield myself from her but be able to maintain a relationship with her to see the boys. So now I feel totally sandwiched in dysfunction. Mother, alcoholic NPD, brother, alcoholic NPD, daughter, alcoholic BPD (probably). Good grief. At least brother doesn't show his head around often.

What I am most proud of is my sons all seem somewhat together. And my son that went to see her, he is wise beyond his years!

Lynne - glad the visit went well. I understand your anger at the NH rules and inflexibility. The people in an NH have very little left in their lives that they can enjoy. Hope you can work something out.

50schild - don't worry about writing a book. We all need to unload. We also all need to detach. What your father is going through is HIS life. I tend to be very empathetic, too and have had to remind myself that what other people are going through are their journeys, not mine. I have my own journey, and it is hard enough without taking on myself the burdens of others. I don't mean not to be compassionate to others , or to help others as appropriate - of course. But not to feel you have to experience their pain, their emotions, their limitations. That is their journey. Focus on your own journey. You are first and foremost the caretaker of yourself. Often, that is the biggest challenge. You can, if you want to.

judda - glad the EFT worked. Growth is never easy! Here is to leaving our attachment to our trauma behind. I think it takes discipline, sometimes daily, to focus on the here and now and the good things that we all have."She is totally at sea in her smallest self. Oh yes, my mother too, although her world is expanding in an unfortunate way as her delusions are growing. I pray for relief for her too. Hugs don't work too well with her either.

sad - I believe that EMDR effective, as is neurolinguistic programing (NLP). I feel for you being caught between alcoholism, PDs and family members. My situation too. My daughter stopped drinking and is struggling with the PD. I know about the "stories" (lies). I was an abusive mother too, as she tells it. I do think it is important to keep a presence with the grandkids. You may influence them more than you realise. You are rightfully proud of your sons. Accepting the truth is the first step in dealing with it. I think you are doing very well. Keep it up!!!

Have a good day everyone and do something good for you today, or if not good for you at least enjoyable - like choc hazelnut fudge ice cream!!!

Sad1, I often used to wonder why my daughter's Israeli clinical psychologist gave me such filthy looks when I delivered daughter to her weekly session: I understood that she couldn't discuss daughter (then 15 years old) with me, but not why she felt the need to be quite so icy. In the end I put it down to her being Israeli - probably terribly racist of me - but now you've got me wondering what on earth she'd been told… :-/

cm - You should wonder. I found out that it was told to a psychologist that I gallivanted about with young men, while my daughter looked after the house and the other kids. The only truth in it was that my bf, later to become my husband, was younger than me, but we didn't do much gallivanting. He was earning a living to support me and my three kids - including her. I did the majority of the housework and child care. She helped appropriately, as did the boys. They never complained. Ex was hard on all of us in some ways, but he also supported them financially and personally in whatever they did. Later, when it might have been to her advantage, as she was fighting for custody for her child, and living with me at the time, she claimed that I provided a healthy supportive environment that would benefit her child. Ever feel used???

CM & Emjo - Back in the day - when the Talking Heads were very popular - we had the movie and were watching it with a friend of my husbands. Yes, we had a couple of drinks (like 2) and we started to goof around and were dancing - we were really just having fun - no harm to anyone! We were laughing and apparently my daughter was watching us - which was no big deal - she was about 8. She told my nieces the next day that I had stood on the table and took my top off! WHAT??? So when my niece told me that - I calmly said she must have been dreaming - and it just wouldn't make sense for me to do that - as our table had a glass top - and that would be dangerous, blah blah. I was absolutely floored! Then another time, I was about 4 months pregnant - my daughter told her teacher I lost the baby. She saw me in the hall at school and hugged me and told me how sorry she was - that my daughter had told her the news. I just stared at her - asked what she had said. WOW! How do you respond to these things. I know that I have been a total ostridge when it come to her...and really did figure she had grown out of this behavior. She also talks over you and doesn't listen - so trying to tell her what really happened is not an option. She also had told me that one of her memories borders on sexual abuse from my husband - which again - never happened. So - CM - your daughter probably told her councilor quite the tale - and honestly - if a councilor doesn't assume there are two sides to every story - they are doing more harm than good.

I am so thankful for mine - she has given me great tools for dealing with my mother - and today will learn more for dealing with my daughter. I just at this point not sure how to approach her - thinking I will just call when I am down there and say I wanted to see her and the kids - and just act like nothing happened...I want to smack her though!! Guess I better wait....

Emjo - on being used...when my daughter was in high school and lived with her dad - she only called me when she wanted something - I actually one time just bluntly said - what is it you want - she didn't even pick up on it!

sad ((((((hugs))))) Quite a few stories from your daughter! Now you have me thinking about a few other things!!! I kept hoping and thinking she has grown out of it too, but her brother just laugh at that, as does Gary. The last big split was a couple of years ago when after a period of time when she had been very nice to me, she asked me if I would stay at their house on some weekends to look after the kids, so she and her husband could have some time together. I was 75, had chronic fatigue and thyroid problems and my grandkids are very active, so I said I couldn't do it, but I would be willing to come over for a few hours in a day, if she needed some time off. The "climate" changed from sunny to very bad weather then, and went down hill for a couple of years. She never asked me to come over in the daytime which is what I figured I could manage. Things are picking up again now, but I can't say I expect that to last. The sandwich generation indeed, where you are used and abused by your mother, your daughter and your sister. We have to protect ourselves!!!

CM, Sad1, Emjo, here I go again just when I swore I should "shutty". I have to 'fess up’ that I may have been an evil, lying daughter. But it wasn't as simple as that. My mother so dominated every breath and inner thought, that I thought I didn't exist (not just abstractly but I really thought I was invisible and worthless and as a child jumped off of things and taunted danger just to see if I was alive). I made up dramatic stories AND BELIEVED THEM. In retrospect, I did so hoping for rescue, attention and concern. People and police ignored huge things like my brother jumping out of home’s 3rd floor windows, shooting at my parents, and malicious vengeance with friends he perceived turned on him. But when I told them my brother sexually abused me (not quite true) -- suddenly I got much-needed attention 1-hour/week attention for a few weeks. Wrapping a therapist or counselor up in one's tornado of confused drama, is easy. Who can afford years of psychoanalytic therapy? The family Uproar Play mobilizes attention so effortlessly. The counselor/therapist is supposed to first gain trust and then "re-parent" with their non-threatening outstretched bird wings. I don’t think most youthful clients make it very far beyond that protective initial stage. They obviously couldn’t have, or else they would have grown out of their tall tales. They would have sincerely made amends with you. What I can’t believe is that you all sound so wise, patient and open. You must have so much inner pain because parenting turned on you. With your awarenesses, I just can’t see how an offspring could hold onto their crazy lies and bitterness. If my own mother had been even a fraction aware of psychology and dynamics as you, my lying would have been burst like a balloon. Could their lies be simple jealousy (of another sibling), or their own adult sense of failure incorrectly placed upon you? Has something skipped a generation and they resurrect old ghosts of your life? Or has school and peer pressures truly created this kind of mean narcissism? I did have a lot of guilt/shame about my lies. Sounds like your “children” don’t. Maybe the good part of that is they need that false fuel to go on and face themselves, at your expense. I am so sorry and so amazed how you have all worked with this in such positive ways.

50s I have to take myself out of the wise-but-wronged parent circle! - I was a bloody awful mother who now tries not to beat herself up about it, and the children - à la Oscar Wilde quotation - are rare specimens who have more or less forgiven me. This daughter, alas, is such a chip off the old block that I sometimes got paranoid that she'd sneaked my old diaries out of the attic and was deliberately mimicking me. She had all sorts of problems, the world was against her, she was very depressed and she and her brother are like - I don't know - potassium and water. She was bullied at home and at school, at different times; but nobody - doctors, schoolteachers - picked up on it because she was outwardly so tough: classic 'smiling depressive.' I did what I thought was right - i.e. better than my mother! Big deal… - by standing over her and refusing to let her move school (I didn't reckon any other would be better), stop eating or kill herself. I probably looked pretty monster-shaped to her at the time.

Cm - good grief! Please don't beat yourself up and I am quite sure you weren't a "bloody awful mother". Our children do not come with instructions and you are right that we didn't get the best modeling on how to be good mothers. I was 21 when I had my daughter - I had never even changed a diaper! I made mistakes...lots of them. Yes - my daughter is a hot mess but on the flip side - LOTS of people had bad childhoods and have stopped blaming their mothers and have moved forward in life. Unless you physically and mentally abused your children - and you loved them - you did the best you could. It is up to them now.

I speak now as a person who went to counciling yesterday (and EMDR) and one thing she said to me which makes sense - we are codependants from our childhood - people pleasing, make everything ok, want everyone to like us etc people. She said on one end of the spectrum is our dear narc - the selfish, self absorbed. On the other end is us...in the middle is normal. We have to be a little more selfish in order to protect ourselves and say no etc. we need to love ourselves, forgive ourselves and respect ourselves. What's that old saying, it starts at home - well for us - it starts within. Happy and healthy Friday all!