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EN, would it be a good idea to give the hospital one child's number (pick a child, any child, for any standard reason - oldest, lives closest to previous address, whatever) and let them do the informing?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
They have it, her son spoke to the nurse but I don't know what was said.
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This is going to get tricky, isn't it.

You are concerned about your aunt, but also irritated.

Well, you're going to have to stop being concerned about her. Because either you are not involved, in which case you will be given no information about what is happening, in which case you will have no idea what you're actually dealing with. Or...

The fact is that you have already involved yourself. I agree that you can't have people wandering into your office to discuss family members, lunatic or otherwise; but the fact that the apartment manager knew where to find you and was able to wander in indicates that there is some sort of professional network underlying what you've been able to accomplish so far.

How can you formally hand her over to somebody competent?
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Beatty Jun 2022
I think it can be done. By EN stating she is Aunt's niece & so has concens for her wellbeing.

But is not her POA/Guardian/financial or social support. Will not be providing supervision/caregiver after a hospital stay, in her home or mine. If she cannot return home just yet, she will need alternative arrangements.

This is where I am with my relative. It is working so far. I will give info - as an advocate & to assist clarity of needs (also to also ensure I am not 'volunteered' to be more than I have said).
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Crawling across the street? C'mon. How drama queen-esque can you get? You mean like on her hands and knees?

Had she fallen?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I don't think she was injured at all, the doctor said it sounded like a panic attack. She may be weak because she's not eating appropriately for her diabetes but she does have 2 walkers and would have been able to bring either of them with her without any trouble.
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I have a feeling this thread is going to end up with at least 1,000 posts before this adventure is over.

EN, I'm very sorry to tell you this, but your story is only beginning.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I assure you it just got one step closer to ending. I'm not visiting or calling her while in the hospital and I won't be picking her up afterwards. Her kids are aware of where she is and she's their responsibility from here on out.
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This must be very hard on your mom.

How soon is that vacation?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
10 days away.
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EN- Now that aunt's children are aware of her status, refer everyone to them. This is the perfect time to STEP AWAY.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
They know but I don't think they are planning on stepping in. I told them they should look for an assisted living facility for her and to contact the hospital social worker. I get 5 hours of sleep per night during the week and I am done losing any sleep or time over this.
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Since Aunt is competent, I'm curious about what happens if/when she tells them that it's fine to discharge her home because she has you, her SW niece standing by to be her helper.

I'm wondering if you should make it clear in writing to the discharge folks that Aunt is not able to reach out for you for support and that you will NOT be stepping in.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I told the hospital that if her kids don't get involved then she has no one to take care of her. Also, aunt hasn't tried to call me and I'm not going to be trying to get in touch with her.
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"I don't think she was injured at all, the doctor said it sounded like a panic attack."

Are you on the HIPAA forms? If not, then why did the doctor discuss her condition with you?

It will be interesting to see how she gets back to her apartment after release from the hospital...
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Beatty Jun 2022
"It will be interesting to see how she gets back to her apartment after release from the hospital..."

Yes. While a fully independent person could/would call a taxi.. sick/injured/frail would rely on family, friend or neighbour.

The pressure will be on EN!
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The ER sent her to a different hospital? Psych place?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Yes. It was probably the closest available bed.
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It sounds like the OP was forced to move aunt to her city because mom made her.

It does not sound like there were any discissions with aunt regarding expectations etc before she moved near them.

I really feel sad for the aunt at this point especially if no real conversations happened between all three of them.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Lol, she knew no one was going to live with her, take her to doctor appointments, drive her around town, do her grocery shopping or laundry or deliver her meds. Those are all things that can be hired and I am not her employee. She knows my mom is elderly too and not in much better shape than her. If she wants to go back to her town of 200 people that doesn't even have a cab company or gas station, be my guest. I never signed on to be her caregiver or errand girl. I will invite her to dinner once a month and occasionally drop something off to her, I literally do not have enough hours in my day to complete things that need to be done, not counting her and her issues. She is her children's responsibility whether or not they agree. I have my own mom to take of.
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OMG, I can't believe she did that.

Just give all your cousins ph#s to the SW. Even if they are mad at her, someone has to give permission to place her. Get to her financials. Easier for a child then a niece. Cousins get her set up, then they do not have to do anything else. Its up to them if they want the State to take over her care.

Once the SW contacts her children, you can step out of the picture. If its felt she needs to be in 24/7 care and her kids don't want to be involved, then its all up to the SW. Just say sorry I am not getting involved any more than I have. I care for my Mom and work f/t. I cannot care for this woman any more than I have. She has kids and siblings that can help her.

Go on your vacation and forget what is going on.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I texted her kids that they should find her an assisted living facility and that all we can do is have her over for dinner once a month.
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I've been thinking about my aunt and her life, she was very pretty when she was young and seemed to think this entitled her to special treatment. I think aging was really hard on her and the fact that looks don't really matter anymore. She takes two hours to get ready before she'll leave the house. She really seemed to find her own value in men finding her attractive. She actually originally met her husband because he was married to her best friend. She denies they were involved while he was married. A lot of her anger and sadness could be coming from realizing that she is just like everyone else and that she can't get people to do what she wants just by smiling at them.

I have worked with some very bitter elderly people and some who were extremely kind and positive. The kind ones had wonderful attitudes and were grateful for their lives, they didn't spend their time focused on how they thought things should been or how others treated them, they just went on about their lives.
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Beatty Jun 2022
I saw a beautifully styled older lady at the swimming pool recently. Everyone else is wearing bathers, wobbly bits here & there.. hair short, up or under a cap.

This woman walks like a model to the pool, descends down the steps with grace, toned physique, beautifully styled hair - artificially more blond than white, lipstick & earrings on.

Yes the men looked.
Yes the women looked.
A knockout movie star from the glamorous old days?

I imagine an extended stay in a hospital without the facials, hairstylist, hair-colourist, manicurist, personal trainer etc would have this gal looking like a regular person in no time.

Probably be the death of her though.

I think you are on to it.. sigh.

BUT. The silver lining is your Aunt may come to realise & accept there is more to life.. she has time..

It is the last *task* of our human life. Grateful & ok with our life, or bitter regrets.
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EB- what were the reactions from aunt's children when you talked /texted them?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
They are going to with the doctor tomorrow and try to figure out what to do with her. I dont think they've actually talked to her. I will check in on her cat every couple days but dat's all folks.
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I am glad I am not OP because after aunts last meltdown I would probably have caved out of guilt and started doing everything for aunt.

OP kudos for staying firm with your boundaries.
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JoAnn29 Jun 2022
That is what the Aunt is hoping, to wear OP down. Its not OPs responsibility to take care of her Aunt. She has children and siblings that can help.
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EN, I just wanted to tell you that you are doing a great job.

I pray that your Auntie gets the help she needs. She obviously has some very serious issues that only professional care can successfully treat.

Doing everything you have, has actually put her in the best position to receive that help.

As challenging as this is, you were absolutely correct to step in and help.

Well done!
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EN, Assisted Living might be too much help, and not the right kind.

My mom thrived in an Independent Living facility which served 3 meals a day, had activities and transportation. Best of all, there was a geriatrics doc and a geriatric psychiatrist who visited several times a week.

We had no idea that places like that existed. We were given great advice by a psychiatrist who talked to mom when she was hospitalized after being in AL for a week. He explained that she needed people around 24/7 and more social contact, but not assistance with ADLs. It sounds like your Aunt is at about the same place.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
That may be right, she doesn't like to be alone but she also doesn't want to do anything for herself. She did 2 loads of laundry at her new place then complained up a storm to my mom. The only time she wants to stand up is when she has to walk to the bathroom. She acted like her husband didn't do anything around the house but as far as I can tell he did almost everything. The muscles in her calves are completely nonexistent and it's not from any sort of health condition, she just doesn't want to do anything.
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"I get 5 hours of sleep per night during the week and I am done losing any sleep or time over this."

Only 5 hours of sleep? Why?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I have 3 jobs, I take care of my mom, I have a dog with health problems and I just went back to school. I am sleep deprived and time deprived.
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She called me 7 times today, 4 of the times right in a row. Her psych hold will be up tomorrow. I dont see her agreeing to go to an assisted living and I dont think the hospital will go as far as to legally commit her. I think she will either try to leave when the hold is up or wait until the hospital discharges her.

I dont think her children have actually spoken to her, I think they are just talking to the doctor. So I think she will try to show up on my doorstep and guilt us into letting her stay here. I hope I am wrong. If she shows up here I will give her a ride back to her apartment and tell her we love her but we aren't able to have the level of involvement that she seems to want. We will have her over to dinner once a month and talk to her on the phone once a week. If she needs more than that or tries to cross those boundaries then we won't be able to have anything to do with her.
It's been so nice with her being gone these last few days, I feel like I can breath again.
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Beatty Jun 2022
That sounds like an excellent plan. Honest, caring, but with very reasonable limits.

Take it or leave it really!

Aunt either accepts what you can offer - good. Or continue to push & hound you - which will result in the breakdown of your contact. Not so good, but will be as it will be.

I have had to do this twice (watered down). #1. Accepted with grace. Relationship still fine (win/win)
#2. Pushed too far. I now ignore 100% calls, most txts, & reduced contact. (win/whatever).

I suspect as soon as you & your Mother have shown you will not be her 'employees' she will be in full actor mode, talent scouting for replacements.
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This is how you tell your cousins "Your mom cannot live with us." Period.
No excuses, no or very limited explanations.
Of course she may try to convince you or your mom.
You must learn to feel OKAY about yourself having the decision making POWER to say NO. If you get swallowed up in a guilt trip or she wears you down, due to you not feeling secure enough in yourself / your decisions, you will regret it.
Say "No, this won't work out." I would be willing to brainstorm other alternative housing if this might help you out." You will likely be meant with silence as she'll be stunned. If she can't 'crack you,' she'll likely try to work on your mom - and perhaps turn your mom against you/r decision, creating discord between you and your mom.
* If you have difficulty setting boundaries, limited, feeling okay about saying NO, take time outs to re-center yourself. If you need to call a friend for support, do it.
* Write down reasons ahead of time so you do not have to rely on specifics when you might be emotionally / psychologically triggered. You can refer to your list. As well, make a list of 'affirmations,' and/or inspirational sayings that will support you when you start to feel overwhelmed or attacked.
* If / when in the throws of this 'discussion,' when you feel overwhelmed, STOP, LEAVE. Breathe, regroup. Tell her you are clear on your decision and willing to help her out to find other alternatives (and limit your time with this). People who are needy also NEED boundary setting.
Good luck. Gena.
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Countrymouse Jun 2022
Um. Have you read through the thread?
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EN, how many of the seven calls did you answer?

When are you going to spell out the new boundaries to her, and when not if she besieges them day after day what exactly are you going to do about it?

Does your mother know about the one phone call a week rule?

You couldn't leave her alone in her house in the middle of nowhere, huh. Pity.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I didn't answer any of them, I let her kids know that I have her apartment keys and that I will check on the cat to make sure it has food and water. They can relay that information to her or her doctor. There is nothing else I need to say to her. My mom will definitely be the weakest link, for multiple reason. Even now, at night she's complaining about aunt then the next morning she feels guilty and says she wishes she wouldn't have said anything. We both agreed how nice it is since she's been in the hospital.
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"I have 3 jobs, I take care of my mom, I have a dog with health problems and I just went back to school. I am sleep deprived and time deprived."

Yikes! (WHY????? I know....none of my business.)

It's definitely something I wouldn't do. One full-time job would be enough. I wouldn't have a pet, and I definitely wouldn't be taking care of my elderly mother.

And of course I wouldn't be doing anything at all for a manipulative aunt.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I need my dog, she's my baby. One full-time job is not enough to progress at all in this economy. I love my mom and will make it work with her living with me as long as it possible, but I do get that there may come a day when I'm not able to take care of her anymore. School....well I figured out that I only needed 20 more credits then I can get another whole licensure that qualifies me to do be able to do more and add a few more letters after my name. The aunt....you got me on that one! I want nothing to do with her and I just keep wondering what she's going to try to do when she gets out of the hospital. I'm sure she's not done with her tricks yet.
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EN, I just want to tell you what to expect.
Your aunt is going to come down HARD on your mom. She will pull every trick in the book - guilt, manipulation, bullying, more guilt, etc., all in an attempt to get your mom to agree to let her live with you guys and take care of her.
You need to mentally prepare yourself for some antics. That crawling in the street business was mild compared to what is probably to come. You have many things on your plate to occupy your mind. Auntie thinks of NOTHING BUT THIS! She is plotting and planning.
She is going to dig deep.

I had a sort of similar situation with an aunt, whom I loved dearly, trying to manipulate me into staying with her at night, in addition to the bazillions of things I did for her during the day, every day. There was major push back when I kept my boundaries firmly in place.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I am hoping the doctor and her kids talk her into an assisted living but I have no idea what she'll do ultimately. Or even if they set up some home health or something. I am afraid she's going to just show up on my doorstep with a taxi waiting to be paid. I think that this incident may scare aunt enough that she will back off some, I know she doesn't want to be forced in a facility and this may scare her enough that she'll try to get her act together.
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EN, I can so recall in grad school being told that many of us would hold several jobs at a time, and not to let our blue collar relatives make it an issue. It's the norm in most places for SW to have several workplaces.

Your Aunt needs more support that is currently available to her. Even loving children (and I hope I was that) can't always provide the level of care a parent or relative needs.

I will always recall my very loving, but practical SIL saying, after my mom was dxed with dementia and was delusional, " I always thought mom would come to live with us, but not if she's crazy."

I knew exactly what she meant. I couldn't care for mom (no space, NYC healthcare options would not be good, isolation from the rest of family) but my SIL's very clear thought process laid it out for all of us.
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Reading you hold down 3 jobs, school, sick dog and Mom, there is no way someone should assume you can care for Aunt to. You have to stand firm because you don't have a minute to spare.

Good for not answering Aunts calls. You may just have to ghost her for a while to force her to rely on someone else. And Xena saying Aunt will wear Mom down...its your house right. So Mom cannot allow Aunt to live there.

Hope you keep this thread going. Want to hear how it ends.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Thank you, I think aunt is looking for an escape by calling me but she would just be walking right back into the same situation that she seemed to find so unmanageable before. She was only in the apartment for a week and we saw her three of the days and talked to her almost every day. I don't want to reinforce that dynamic and if I become the person she calls sobbing, I am just setting her up to continue doing that when she gets out of the hospital. I assure you she is no wilting wallflower and she has full capacity. If anything was amiss mentally it would have been because she was downing Ativan. There was nothing medically wrong with her, they would not have sent her to psych ward until they fixed any medical issues first.

Yes, it is my house and my mom doesn't want her to live with us but she might feel guilted into doing something else. But the funny thing is that my aunt hasn't called my mom since she's been in there, she's just called me over and over. Why do you think that is?
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The simple answer is NO. No further explanations are needed. This question needs to be closed to further comments. There are 175 too lengthy answers. No is a complete answer.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Things have changed since the original question. It wasn't a simple death old age and there have been a lot of extenuating circumstances.
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She just called twice. I feel guilty not answering but all I can think is that she wants something or wants to cry about something or to ask me to drive 3 hours to bring her makeup to her.
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sp19690 Jun 2022
Maybe she wants to know about her cat. Please clean the litter box for the poor little guy. He can't do it himself. He really should be checked on daily not every 2 days. It's not his fault he gas a wack job for an owner.
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EN, you are going to have to tell her no at some point, don't you think starting while she is in care would be best?

That way she has some support and treatment if it makes her wig out.

Sorry, I think this is part of bringing her to your city, you have to be forthright and honest with her, it's only fair.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Her hold is up today and her children were having a meeting with the doctor. I think that she wants to try and get me to come pick her up since the hold is up and she doesn't want to go to an assisted living facility. I called the unit and told them to tell her that I have her house keys and that we are checking on the cat. I also told her children this information so they can let me know what she is getting out.

I don't think this is part of bringing her to my city. This isn't dropping off a coffee or having her over once a month for dinner. This is a manipulative woman calling me from the psych ward to try to get me involved in whatever is going on there. I'm done with that. Her and her kids can work this out or she has other siblings or people she can call. She is in a safe place and probably trying to get out of there so she can go home and chainsmoke in her nonsmoking apartment, smoke her pot, take her Ativan and avoid actually working on herself. The fact that she called multiple times right in a row means she is not emotionally regulated and needs to stay there longer.
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"...funny thing is that my aunt hasn't called my mom since she's been in there, she's just called me over and over. Why do you think that is?"

My knee jerk answer is that you're the one with a car and can drive and fetch things and do things for her. Your mom can't do any of those. Aunt can put on the waterworks to get you to do what she wants.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She got desperate enough to call my mom today. She's called my house four times and my cell eight times so far, and there's still the evening to go. My mom is also saying to not answer.
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She probably wants to blame you for her being there although she arranged that trip all by herself.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
If you crawl across one of the busiest streets in town for no discernible reason, you can expect a trip to the psych ward.
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She is calling because she wants you to pick her up. Once in your car, she will refuse to be returned to her apartment. She wants you to take over being responsible for her.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She's probably trying to act like a sweet normal old lady to the hospital staff, then calling me frantically over and over every other minute.
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