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My mom is once again trying to be the weakest link. She was talking about going to visit or calling aunt today. She says it's not that she wants to but she feels like she should. I reminded her that she is not good at saying no and when she agrees to do something, that usually means that she is obligating me to do something because she is very limited in what she can do. I reminded her that this aunt moving down here in the first place is because she couldn't say no and leave this aunt alone in her house. I reminded her that she has a history of saying yes to this aunt when she doesn't want to and then being angry and resentful towards her. I asked what she is going to say when aunt starts crying and begging her to 'not abandon her'. I told her that I am done with aunt and will not commit to even dropping her off a cup of coffee once a month. I will not help her see aunt or drive her over there. I am just starting to feel a little bit recovered from all this.

My brother said something recently that stuck out to me. He said when he doesn't want to do something sometimes, he will become such a pain in the rear end that eventually someone will do it for him. That is totally aunt's M.O.! Obviously she knows we don't want anything to do with her, we haven't answered the phone or called in a month. We have told other members of the family that we can't be involved. So she gives my number to a crisis worker to call me? I feel like I have PTSD from this whole situation.
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Geaton777 Jul 2022
"...when he doesn't want to do something, he will become such a pain in the rear end that eventually someone will do it for him."

There is actually a term for this: Learned Incompetence (part of passive aggressive behavior).

It's the same when children don't want to do something, they flop on the floor and insist they "don't know how!!! or "I'm too tired!!!" until a parent finally gives in just to stop the whining.
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"The crisis person asked her if there was anyone who could help her out over the weekend and she gave them my number."

She is a master of manipulation, isn't she? She has someone on the line who presumably can get her emergency supplies or help from an agency, but she defaults to running you to ground.

More flying monkeys to do her bidding.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
She's probably trying to get to my mom through me? One of her kids texted me today wondering if we 'had any updates' I just said no, we haven't heard anything. She said 'hmm, thanks for the update'. I can't help but laugh at that. This is YOUR mother, call the police yourself if you can't get a hold of her or come for an emergency visit.
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EN, was this crisis stabilization worker part of a follow-up to her in-patient psych stay?

Curious how they have your number.

If her children don't care that she is either crying for help or crying wolf, I don't see how it's your place to get involved.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
The crisis person asked her if there was anyone who could help her out over the weekend and she gave them my number. Yes, it was a follow up from the hospital. I let her kids know and they said they've been trying to get a hold but she won't respond since one of them told her she cant live with them.
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Perhaps have a cousin's phone number handy as "next of kin" for these situations...
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I was driving home from work today and I got a call from some sort of crisis stabilization worker. Apparently, the worker had talked to my aunt and my aunt had said she needed groceries and she wanted someone to come over and plug in her computer. The worker wanted someone to take her groceries and is going to meet with her next tuesday. I said that we werent involved but I could let one of my other aunts that has been helping her know. I texted my cousins and let them know. The cousins said that she hasn't been responding to them ever since one of them told her she can't live with them. I let my aunt know and she said she was sure that the other aunt had groceries but she was going to call her. She called me back a few hours later and said she was worried because aunt wasn't answering the phone. I told her she could call in a welfare check so she did. The police said no one was home, so this aunt was thinking that maybe she went for a ride with one of my uncles.
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PeggySue2020 Jul 2022
EN, next time this happens, how would u feel about just telling the social worker that you’re not involved as next of kin?
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I've been back from vacation for several days and have not spoken to my aunt at all. She called today for the first time but I didn't answer. But I'm having some interesting clarity tonight. My mom got all worked up talking about my aunt and acting like someone should help her or concerns about aunt losing all her money because shes not addressing financial things. I had to basically tell her whatever will be, will be. If aunt is not taking care of what she should be that is on her and she will bear the consequences. She was ok cognitively at the time her husband died. If she isn't now, it's because shes doping herself up on ativan. I am not getting involved with this again.
My clarity was that my mom is what got me involved in the first place. She wants to worry about all this, get riled up and eventually I get involved just so I can have some peace and quiet. Not happening this time. My aunt cries and acts helpless to get people to do what she wants but my mom gets angry about it and thinks if she blows that will solve the problem. Two sides of the same coin. What a cycle these two have been in their whole lives. My mom might have some insight into their pattern but all the insight in the world doesnt do a damn bit of good if you keep letting yourself fall back into the behavior.
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polarbear Jun 2022
EN- Glad to see you're back, and with newly found clarity to boot.

You successfully put up boundaries with aunt. Congratulations!!! Seems to me you need to do the same with mom's rant and rave about helping aunt.

Did you have a nice vacation?
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Tell them that their mum needs them in this point of her life and their the only people in her life and they should support her and you should keep praying to God
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First day of vacation already over! It was in the 90's and the water was super warm. Rained for a bit in the evening and that helped cool it off some. The sand here is so nice, I think they call it sugar sand. Where I'm from the sand is almost like gravel and you feel like you're covered with a layer of dust when you leave the beach. Here it just falls through your fingers. I just like to sit and stare at the water, it's so peaceful. I kind of feel like I'm getting over a breakup or something, like a big thing has happened and I'm recovering from it. I have some work that I need to finish but I'm gonna put that off for another day and just read until I fall asleep.
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My bookmark 😊

From now to you get home I want to hear nothing about the Aunt. You are on vacation! Please enjoy the peace and quiet. Tell us positive things about ur days.

My daughter, not into religion, read Boundries by Townsend and Cloud and felt, even though Christian based it was pretty good.
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It sounds like there is a good deal of untreated mental illness in mom's family.

Is your mom being followed by a geriatric psychiatrist for her depression and anxiety?

Is her pain being treated now?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
The pain is being treated but there aren't a lot of options for this condition. She takes an antidepressant.
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Having dealt with jerks on various issues (including, but not limited to, care giving), who've seen me as the solution to *their* responsibilities, I've found *that* you tell them, is more important than *how* you tell them, first order that you state plainly that it's not up to them, it's up to you, and you say no, period.

It's difficult, because they're *choosing to make* it difficult, hoping that the path of least resistance for you is to give in, to get out of an awkward situation, that they *chose to create*, in the hope of *transferring their responsibilities to you*.

It's in your interest to be as polite as you can, to not take the bait of engaging in drama, so that they can't twist your words and reaction for their benefit. If they hint and hang over your head that there may be unpleasant consequences to your decision, then they own those consequences (as well as the situation its self) that they chose to create, not you. There's never an easy way to deal with dishonorable people, because they deliberately *make* it difficult as a strategy to take from you, that which does not belong to them. Once I learned to see it this way, it didn't necessarily become easy for me, but the choice did become more clear. Honorable people would never have put you in this situation, in the first place, period.

(above paragraphs, are in my position on the cousins, siblings is unfortunately far more difficult)
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anytown Jun 2022
In a nutshell, it's called 'being set up, for appeasement'. Targets of this are often surprised and disappointed in the people who do this to them, and sometimes go into denial about the reality of the person doing this to them. And that's exactly what people who do this are counting on. I still try to see the best in others, and be as forgiving as I can, but when people show me who they are, I believe them, even if it disappoints me.
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EN, I was curious about your caregiving situation with your mother, so I looked back on your previous posts. You first posted here in 2019.

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/princess-and-the-pea-469620.htm?orderby=recent&page=1�

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/how-do-you-plan-anything-in-your-life-as-a-caregiver-465194.htm?orderby=recent&page=1�

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/what-can-you-do-when-a-sibling-doesnt-keep-the-rest-of-family-informed-about-moms-medical-condition-464927.htm?orderby=recent&page=1�

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/anyone-having-a-fallout-and-losing-siblings-over-parents-care-464462.htm?orderby=recent&page=1�
https://www.agingcare.com/questions/caregiver-fatigue-or-a-horrible-person-445038.htm?orderby=recent&page=1󪃥

How long do you plan on being your mother's only caregiver? You already subsidize her financially; when it comes to her needing help while you are at work, are you going to pay for that out of your own pocket? You have siblings (2 sisters?), and neither of them does a thing to help with their mother. And one lives only a mile away! Why is that?

Were you groomed to me your mother's eventual caregiver?

What is your mother's financial status? Is she contributing anything to her upkeep? Is facility placement every going to be on the table?

I assume your sister a mile away has had nothing to do with your aunt?

While this thread has to do with your aunt and her manipulations, it seems like you have also been manipulated by your mother, yes?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
No one helps on a daily basis with my mom. My sister that only lives a mile away has not seen her in over a year. My other sister would help on occasion if she can but she is also a single mom. My brother cannot even take care of himself. I dont think I was intentionally groomed to be her caregiver but that's how it has ended up. She has a very small social security income that would not support her on her own. She goes through periods of depression due to chronic pain. Sometimes we get along really well and sometimes she just complains about everything. Facility placement is not on the table at this point but she does know that if it gets to a point where I cant take care of her, then she would have to go to one.
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EN, it occurs to me that you are an inveterate "fixer" (I am too) and that you don't trust yourself to be able to say "no, I can't possibly do that" and stick to it.

So many folks I know use religious texts to manipulate others for their own gain. Christ advocated poverty and communal welfare, yet the folks who preach his texts aggressively and loudly appear to hold neither of those values in high regard.

I like "God helps those who help themselves."

Aunt needs a professional therapist. Not you.
She needs reliable transportation. NOT YOU.
She needs food and prescription delivery. Not you.
She needs a new team of doctors. Not you.
She needs a case manager. Not you,

You've given her all the tools to acquire the above. Your stepping back forced her kids to step back in (good!).

Your mother can have as much of a relationship as she wants with her sister. It doehave to involve you. Your mom sounds easily manipulated by her sister, so you may end up needing to enforce a boundary with mom as well.

As I've said, therapy is a pretty good c way of working on this stuff.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
My mom doesnt want anything to do with aunt at this point but she does feel guilty about her. I just dont want anything to do with her period. I know that I am not what aunt needs and I feel that she has also been downplaying her own abilities. Its the manipulation that really pisses me off and that she has no thought of anyone but herself.
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It's been quiet...almost too quiet. We had the cookout for my mom's bday today and it went well. We're leaving tomorrow morning for vacation. I haven't talked with her kids since she discharged on Wednesday. My aunt and uncle that I saw today haven't seen her since they let her into her apartment on Wednesday. I have one other aunt that may be involved with her but she called me on Thursday and I didn't answer because I figured it was a set-up to get me to speak to this aunt.
I feel bad for the situation she is in and I told my mom maybe someday we can have a very casual relationship with her but not now. She needs to become more independent and she's very capable of doing all the things that she tries to get other people to do for her. I don't know what she's going to do about her house but she needs to figure that out on her own. I realize that she isn't able to drive but there are plenty of bus, taxi and van services and she has the number for them. I think I feel bad right now because I want to go in and 'fix' things for people but that wouldn't help her, she'd just come up with a new list of requests and it would never end.
I am a Christian and I tried to think about what God would want us to do in this situation and I don't think he'd want us to cater to her. I don't think he want us to completely cut her off, either. I just don't feel capable of a middle ground with her right now though. I need a whole bunch of time and distance before I can even consider talking to her.
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polarbear Jun 2022
EN - You need to keep in mind at all times that this aunt has 4 kids who should be the first ones to step in, next in line should be her siblings. You should not have been the first to help since you are way down the line. So, really, you should not feel bad. You have done way more than enough.

Enjoy your vacation.

If it makes you feel any better, you can write a letter to her explaining why you have to cut off contact with her. What do you think?
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EN, have a wonderful, relaxing and CAREfree vacation.
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My bookmark

Vacation is almost here. It will be so nice getting away, just you and Mom and just the way it should be.
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She got out of the hospital today and took a cab home. Her kids had some sort of discharge meeting with her and told me she has all the phone numbers she needs. Two of my other aunts met her at her apartment and gave her the keys. She started calling my phone around 6, then i started getting calls from one of the other aunts. I didn't answer because I figured they were still together and trying to trick me into answering the phone. I think she has targeted that aunt to recruit as her new caregiver. I felt a little like a prisoner in my house because I could see her trying to stop by and surprise us. I'll be gone from 6:30am until 10pm tomorrow so I should be ok there at least!
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polarbear Jun 2022
OMG. This woman is determined to get back her unpaid servant, isn't she?

Either that or she's lost her memory. No normal person would call and call and call someone for days, not get a response, and still keep calling. Doesn't she get the hint by now? EN, maybe you have to spell it out to her the way you did for her children.
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Just about this cat.. I’ve just read a comment about how a dog loves a master, a cat has domestic staff. Perhaps caring about a cat is a one-way transaction?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I don't think she cares very much about the cat. Certainly wasn't worried what would happen to it when she went crawling across the street. She didn't even mention it to anyone until I told the nurse to let her know that we were feeding the cat it's fine.
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Through a series of interesting events, my father and maternal uncle shared an apartment an hour away from me. When my father was hospitalized, we (mom, bro, and I) contacted my uncle's children (3 adults all living in the same city) and told them that their father needed help because my father would no longer be able to provide care for him. My cousins blew off our concerns. Several weeks passed, my father passed away and my uncle's decline continued. I was the sole caregiver for my mom and her oldest sister and I worked full-time. My mom and I would check on him, but her sister kept us busy. A few months passed and my cousins called, wanting me to become their father's caregiver, too. I told them no. They said he didn't have to live with us, he could live in a Veteran's home in our town and I said no. I didn't hear from them again, and eventually, they moved their father to their hometown.

I shared this to say that no is an answer. No is to the point and is a sufficient response. You don't have to give a reason, but if you want to, that's your decision. Although I love my uncle, I have no regrets with that decision. I am very grateful that I was able to be there for my mom and my aunt.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I'm getting a lot more comfortable with just 'no'.
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I'm so glad you said this: "I don't have time for someone like that in my life and that I don't plan to have any contact with her going forward."

Now you just have to stick with that stance like your very life depends on it. Stay away, at least until someone in her direct line steps up and gets her more permanently situated.

I was in their shoes once, and I sympathize with them. Your experiences with your aunt the past few weeks have been hard, but imagine having to grow up with that. The prospect of becoming re-involved with such a parent is incredibly scary to someone who thinks they finally escaped that person's clutches, and it can take a while to accept the idea that the time has come. The fear is visceral. There's a lot of denial involved.

But ... they have to get involved. Even if involvement just looks like getting the state to take over. The buck stops with them. They just haven't come around to accepting that yet. As long as you, cousin, even have a pinky finger involved with their mother, that's all the excuse they need to keep being in denial. In a way, you're inadvertently enabling them to stay in that place of denial. I'm sure they say "Cousin EN is a social worker. She'll know what to do. Mom still hasn't burned her bridges with EN." You need to show them the burnt up ropes of that bridge, and keep showing it to them until they are forced to admit that there is no one else. It's the only way to get them to admit that this is their responsibility. With any luck, things will progress to the point that they can officially let the state take over as guardian in the near future.

Oh, and the back surgery? Hogwash. I know someone up for back surgery. There was a long wait for the MRI, then there was a long wait for the appointment with the surgeon, and now there's another long wait before the surgery will actually take place. I doubt she got an MRI while being admitted for an anxiety attack, and that she would be scheduled for surgery within two weeks.

At any rate, good for you for finally laying down the law. Now keep doing it until they get it.
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PeggySue2020 Jun 2022
Theres no law saying the cousins or siblings must get involved. Like en, they chose to step up in an emergent situation.

I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if everyone quits helping. That sill doesn’t make it the responsibility of en.
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Moving sounds like a great idea, EN.

Happt birthday to your mom and enjoy your vacation!
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Joann, the cousins and aunts, like en, can walk away at any time. I sense that is what they’d already prefer.
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JoAnn29 Jun 2022
True, and hopefully if that happens one of them will call APS and report a vulnerable elderly person. Same with E, call APS.
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"The Aunt's children hired someone to feed the cat. E will be giving keys to another Aunt and one of her Aunt's children. She has not answered a call from the Aunt since she entered the hospital. E has made it clear to a cousin that she cannot be there for Aunt."

I thought the cat carer is only going to take care of the cat until aunt comes back to her apartment. I am just hoping that EN doesn't jump in even temporarily to do cat care when aunt ends up in hospital again.

From EN: " My cousins hired someone to feed the cat in case she stays in over the weekend so I'm giving her the other set on Friday. We are going to put anything she left at my house in a box and leave it in her apartment."

EN, are you putting anything aunt left at your house in her apartment before you hand over your last set of keys to your cousin on Friday?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Yes. It wasn't much, just a few little things she left around the house. The cat carer is only going to take care of the cat until aunt returns home. I need to run in there and grab my mom's walker that she borrowed too. Aunt hasn't called me at all today yet. I think she skips a day sometimes to let us know she's mad. I'm so ready for this to be over, I'm just concerned on if my mom has the staying power to not fall back into the relationship because she feels sorry for her. We've been talking about moving a lot more in the last few weeks.
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The Aunt's children hired someone to feed the cat. E will be giving keys to another Aunt and one of her Aunt's children. She has not answered a call from the Aunt since she entered the hospital. E has made it clear to a cousin that she cannot be there for Aunt. She works, has school and has her own Mom to help. Whether the children/cousins like it or not, their Mom, their responsibility. Its up to them to make sure she is safe and fed. They do not have to do the hands on care and they can always turn Moms care over to the state. E has set boundries from day one. Laid it on the line but Aunt refuses to honor them. So now, she has to cut Aunt off completely.

Not sure if I would not invite the Aunt that seems to be willing to help. You could ask that she not mention it to the "Aunt" because ur are not inviting her for good reason.

Again, go on your vacation and enjoy. Block everyones #s. You are now done with this Drama. Hopefully, by the time you return, everyone will have it all worked out. Make sure all understand that communications are between Aunt, her children and Aunt's siblings that you are out of the picture.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
The aunt that I wasn't going invite probably wouldn't come any way. She's a hermit and has schizophrenia but she knows how to do things online like order groceries or doordash. She already called me once and was afraid that this aunt in the hospital needed someone with her 24/7. I think she's afraid that she's gonna get stuck just like we were. The main reason I wasn't going to invite her is that she's a huge gossip and she and the uncle I invited aren't speaking right now. She kept trying to dig for information on why I haven't been answering the phone for the other aunt. I just want a nice relaxing time for my mom where she doesn't have to worry about what she says or be grilled about why we don't want to be involved with the other one. And to be honest, I like my uncle more than I like her so I don't want him to uncomfortable or not come because he might run into her.
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I see a potential weak link because of cat care. You've told aunt's family that you are no longer going to be taking care of the cat. Now does aunt do all cat care by herself, including vet visits?

If she lands in the hospital again (probably a matter of "when" not "if"), do NOT do cat care no matter what. Not for a day, not for a week, not "until they can get someone," not for someone "who can't start until next week because they are out of town." Because if you DO agree to any amount of cat care, you will be showing that you cannot hold to a boundary. And then aunt will try to breach all your boundaries all over again.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She normally takes care of the cat by herself, I am not sure how they handled vet visits when her husband was alive. He probably drove to the appointment? They aren't really people who take their pets to the vet very often. I suppose she'll have to take a cab or a bus to the vet. I'm confident she'll find a way to get her needs met, she always does.
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OP, I have been reading and reading and so far I'm on page 5 of your saga and finally had to weigh in. You are going down my friend. I'm going back for more details but I wanted to add my two cents for what they are worth. About 5 years ago - my BIL and SIL moved in with my FIL "temporarily" due to their own need. At the time - my FIL was 99% independent - he could perform most every single Activity of Daily Living (ADL) on his own and was living alone and pretty much didn't need any help unless he had an emergency. They moved in and he had an epiphany that they owed him servitude apparently - and within 18 months - fewer than 500 DAYS....he went from complete independence to complete dependence - because "Why would I do it for myself when they can do it for me?" He can now no longer do a single ADL for himself without intervention with the possible exception of walking to the bathroom with a walker (which he didn't need then) and using the toilet and returning. That is IT.

Please understand when I say this - there are certain personality types and it sounds like your Aunt has one -that will literally take and take and take until there is nothing left - and then you are left with the fall out.

My personal hope is that by the time I get to the end of this you have washed your hands of the entire thing and are moving her to an AL or have left her to her own devices. But I suspect you are still up to your eyeballs in this. I'm crossing my fingers that you have taken your vacation and had an epiphany of your own and escaped!!
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BlueEyedGirl94 Jun 2022
Ok....finally caught up...Phew...OP....my gosh!!! First...kudos on keeping that titanium spine. Now shore it up because I don't think you are out of the water yet by a mile. But you are certainly getting there!!

Your aunt certainly sounds like she has narcissistic tendencies at the very least and she will definitely do whatever it takes to get her supply and her needs met - literally anything! In addition to some other potential mental health issues. She needs help for sure....but it doesn't have to come from you. It doesn't even have to come from her kids! She needs to be somewhere safe for her, get the right assessments completed to diagnose her level of capacity moving forward and place her somewhere safe where she can be taken care of. But NONE of that is on you!

Go on your vacation and enjoy your time. And maybe learn a tiny lesson that as someone else said "no good deed goes unpunished". You have a good heart but sometimes we have to let people figure things out on their own no matter how much we want to help. I know it's hard and I'm pointing my entire hand at myself when I point the finger at you believe me, I'm a total enabler and I keep stepping into steaming piles of crap in my own family (well in laws really) every time I turn around trying to help. All it has done so far is serve to get me in deeper and it certainly benefits my FIL while just prolonging the inevitable unfortunately -and my partners in crime are worse than I am...so my FIL basks in the benefits while we all bend over backwards to ensure that all of his needs are met indefinitely. It's a never ending street that you don't want to get stuck on!

Find that off ramp and take it fast and don't get back on!
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Happy Birthday to your mom and a wonderful, relaxing vacation for both of you.

Well done starting the total disconnect!
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I let the kids know that I dropped off the keys and that apparently she's discharging tomorrow and taking a cab home. One of them asked if I was dropping the keys off there to avoid their mom with a sad face. I said that I have several jobs, I'm in school, I take care of my mom and that I don't have enough hours in the day as it is. I said I can't be the person their mom calls every time she needs something. I said I don't think she's a horrible person but that she's very manipulative and I don't have time for someone like that in my life and that I don't plan to have any contact with her going forward. I said one of the other aunts is going to show her how to order groceries and she has list of all the transportation companies in town.
So that was like 3 hours ago and none of them have said anything. Hasta nunca, ya me voy, muchachas!
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polarbear Jun 2022
LOL...

That's great. You must have felt good laying down your new rules and boundaries to them.
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Dropping one set of her keys off to one of my aunts tonight so she can call this aunt whenever she gets released from the hospital. My cousins hired someone to feed the cat in case she stays in over the weekend so I'm giving her the other set on Friday. We are going to put anything she left at my house in a box and leave it in her apartment. She has called yesterday and today, just in one sitting, she'll call like three times in a row right away then stop for the rest of the day. The aunt that I'm dropping the keys off to called me yesterday and kept trying to fish for details. Then she asks if the aunt in the hospital 'needs' to have someone with her 24 hours a day or not? Looks like she's the next target! I said she 'wants' to have someone with her 24 hours a day but I don't know anyone that is able to do that and that people have their own lives. My mom's birthday is this weekend so I planned a get together for Saturday and did not invite the aunt that I'm dropping the keys off to as she would tell the hospitalized aunt.
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polarbear Jun 2022
Happy bday to your mom.

So, are you inviting some of the aunts and uncles, but not the one that got the house keys? You don't think someone will tell her and the hospitalized aunt about the party?
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Again, my bookmark so I know where I have read to. Can't wait to see how this all pans out.
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