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My uncle passed away and now his wife no longer wants to be poa for my 100 yr old grandmother. What forms do we need signed so I can take over the responsibility?
You definitely need someone you can trust with a backup. My husband and I have a living will, POA, and legal papers with backups in case someone can't.
Question: when you say you don't want your kids to go through his, what plans are you making for that? I ask because I do not have kids to take care of me and I'm not sure who should be my guarantor/ POA
Well the funeral is over and not a word mentioned about gram. I didn't bring it up out of respect for my uncles wife who needed to grieve and she didn't either. Since I have left messages and gotten no return phone call. I ask the nursing home how much is owed and they told me the account is paid up! They just would rather be benefit payee, which I don't like because I want to move gram closer. So I've contacted an attorney and going to ask the attorney to write a strong letter to my aunt asking for a copy of the POA and grams Medicare card so we can see what we have to do. I still may have to file for guardianship if there is no other way to have the POA transferred but won't know that until I get a copy of the POA. Nursing home doesn't want to help at all so that was dead end. In the meantime I've made sure gram has everything she needs and am saving the receipts. I have called the nursing home on a few things concerning grams care and advised them I may not be her POA but I can make a complaint to the state if things don't get done. Seems when a patient doesn't have family visiting nurses aids get lazy. I appreciate all your comments and I'm making sure my kids don't have to go through this ever!
Kat - it sounds like you have a plan. It also sounds like grannies current NH is good and wants to work with you. Consider yourself lucky as since you don't have any legal standing for gran, the NH could be totally "we cannot speak with you...HIPPA requires....yada yada".....
I'd see if the business office can provide you with a print out on grans account for this year AND if they have a copy of the states Medicaid co- pay. It could be called a Determination of Need letter. For my mom, she got 1 in January and then in June. Also you want to find out what the status is on Grans PNA ( personal needs trust) @ the NH.
Do you understand how all this is determined? If not, this is how it ran for my mom: mom got $ 900 in SS and 1K in retirement each month. She was mid 90's too & her income was really high for that age group. For both, an awards letter was sent out in Dec that states the amount of income to be paid for the next year. The awards letter is what state Medicaid program uses as the fixed # that their required copay will be based on. Now $ can be taken out for Medicare from the SS check & this right now is about $ 105 a mo. So for my mom, her co pay was $ 1800 but from the copay the state allows them a PNA. Personal Needs Allowance. PNA varies by state $ 35 - $ 105 a month. My mom was in TX which has theirs at $ 60. So every month, moms required by Medicaid co-pay/SOC to the NH was $ 1,740.00. ($1800 -$60).
The PNA does NOT need to be paid to or held by the NH. Most NH will press upon family to do this but they cannot require it. For my mom, her income was direct deposited to her account and I wrote a ck for $ 1740. Her bank account grew by $ 60 each month. Now I did have a PNA for her at the NH that $ was put into as needed. The PNA tends to be used to pay for beauty salon or extras they can buy if the NH has a canteen (my moms did and she would buy candy). Some NH charge a fee for cable or phone and the fee is amazingly the exact amount of the PNA.
It seems odd that only some of Grans $ is bring paid to the NH. Perhaps Auntie is holding the PNA $ back. Or has the wrong PNA $ amount. Or wants the NH to use any PNA $ built up to zero out before paying from current checks? Once you see the billing info, it should shed some light onto what is happening.
Personally I would avoid like the plague doing a representative payee. SSA will require all sorts of documentation to show intent which you don't have. Your not the existing DPOA. The old not-done-by-an-atty DPOA probably will look sketchy to SSA. If SSA find out there is a gap on compliance with Medicaid, they will probably suspend SS ck and open an investigation. perhaps contact APS as well. I'd bet SSA will take 3-4 mos to work this through too. All the while NH not getting paid. Plus representative payee has required reporting of where funds went with documentation which have to be done or ck is suspended. RP makes sense for those handling funds of children or the profoundly disabled but for a elderly in a NH in which almost all their $ has to be paid to the NH, it seems a total unnecessary to me. SSA seems to me to overreach to create situations that makes work for SSA staff.
Pro bono attorney! Good idea! How does that get started?? Also, is there a chance the old uncle was keeping part of that social security check for himself and his wife and just not paying the nursing home for all of it? How does one find out who is the representative payee for an individual, is this public record?
I think your current goal would be for you to be able to be her representative payee for social security, and to be able to make medical decisions for her, and including where she lives. With her dementia, I am not seeing a frugal way to do that because I don't know how to get a G/C without a lawyer. If anyone knows how I would like to hear about it. There could be a successor listed in the original POA document. A person with POA (the aunt) can't designate the next POA (you) unless that idea was in the original POA document so that won't work. Funerals are good for finding family information one did not know, maybe that will yield some possible pathways for a solution.
Cat, would aunt get the relocation done? Or, there is an emergency process, if you want to move grandma. Maybe the place you are considering would be able to help with that. Just guessing.
Thank you everyone. No she didn't live with them at all and was in assisted living until 4 years ago. I'm all for doing things the easy way and keeping the aunt on my side is my thoughts on how to get this done quickly. It isn't to the point of eviction yet and nursing home told me that only a part of her social security has been going to them when all of it should have been. I am hoping auntie doesn't want to open the big can of worms she is about to open and just helps me get her moved, assign the new nursing home as beneficiary payee so I don't have to worry about it. I understand auntie dealing with my uncles illness but she should have reached out to someone much sooner and NEVER let grandma do without. At some point Medicaid is going to ask auntie where all the funds went and she will have to deal with that! I so appreciate all the input and this has helped me wrap my head around this mess!
catmreed57, so sorry to read that your Uncle's passing was just this week. By chance did your Grandmother live with him and his wife for a number of years prior to Grandmother being placed into a higher level of care?
Kat - GW 1 or 2? The big problem is that grannie isn't competent to do a new DPOA. That means guardianship route.
So what's the issue with Auntie? If she doesn't give an ants butt about gran, this will get ugly & complicated. If uncle was legally responsible for seeing that theNH got paid and they weren't paid, then those bills are going to be tied up in his estate proceedings. Really you don't want any of this to become your problem.
Maybe auntie has been too involved with her husbands care to deal with grannie. Perhaps she thought all $ issues were handled by the NH. Perhaps uncle didn't go into grannies situation as there were unresolveable conflicts......
But at some point soon, the NH will have to send a 30 day notice to whomever was responsible for grannie that she has to move for non-payment of her required by Medicaid copay or her SOC (share of cost) unless the past due is paid. The letter also gets CC'd to your local area on aging & a legal probono clinic if there is one in your county. As that person on file probably was your uncle is dead, ( & auntie likely isn't going to deal with this) what will likely happen is grannie will be made a emergency ward of the state. A court appointed temporary guardian will step in and be able to get her SS and pay the facility. They will file whatever against the estate for delinquencies as well I'd bet.
This issue probably happens often if the elder really lives long enough that they flat outlive their kids and all their friends. Good thing she has the Bushs! I'd ask billing office at the NH what their experience is for this situation.
In many ways, having a temporary guardian done is ideal as everything grannie is now out of aunties hands. The state appointed guardian, you want to work with as there will be a future hearing in which you petition the court to become grannies permanent guardian. The temporary guardian supports your petition so judge will appoint you & you accomplish this on your own without hiring an atty. If you want grannie to move to a NH closer to you, you get the info & details on a couple of places so the guardian can pick one of them. You get her moved while still under the court appointed guardian as they can get her moved much easier than you could. You do whatever to be helpful for the guardian so they become your ally. comprende?
Thank you my feelings exactly. My husband and I did visit a nursing home that is only a mile from our house and I think moving her here would be the best thing but have to get through this legal stuff first. Yes taking care of myself is important! Thank you for reminding me!
Cat, an important thing that needs to be done is for you to take care of you! Daily visits of 100 miles round trip are going to have an impact on you. Then what would happen to grandma?
I appreciate all your answers. My aunt and uncle were her poa. I assume at one point her made her total poa because the nursing home social worker did tell me this. The poa was a home made job only notarized. I realize I can file for guardianship which I am trying to avoid because of the legal expenses. The nursing home also told me that my grandmothers social security is supposed to be paid to them by my aunt and that hasn't been happening. Which tells me the nursing home is owed. I am waiting until after the funeral tomorrow then asking for a copy so I have more answers. As for as right now I know I have bought my grandmother 7 outfits, socks, slippers and other items to make sure she is taken care of. I have been at the nursing home almost everyday since I found out where she was at (long very dysfunctional family). I visited a nursing home close to me that has a dementia unit and I think it would be a good fit for her and allow me to care for her or at least visit daily. She is 100 for God's sake and I don't care how mean she was in her earlier days she doesn't deserve to not be cared for or have someone around her who does care. As it stands now it is 51 miles one way for me to visit her. Grandma is very demented, healthy other than her mind. She told me that the president is George Bush who calls her directly before he makes any decisions about our country if this gives you an idea of her mental. She may have a few years left who knows.
Being that your Grandmother is 100 years old can she still be able to appointment and sign off on a new Power of Attorney? Or is her Alzheimer's/dementia too advanced? If it is too advanced then Guardianship would be needed, that is why Igloo above had asked if your Grandmother's son had such a document.
Am I assuming correctly that your Uncle's wife is of senior age herself? If so, as we age we find being responsible for an older person when we ourselves are seniors is very overwhelming.
Otherwise, contact an Elder Law attorney to guide you in the process.
Usually the POA designates at least one successor in this case your aunt for your grandma? Sometimes a second successor is named. Is there in this case? Or what instructions are in the POA should nobody listed is willing or able/alive to carry out her wishes?
Go back to the attorney that created the POA and ask for the procedure and paperwork for the current POA to resign the responsibility as well as the paperwork to verify the new POA. Most POA's have an alternate in the event the first POA is unable to serve.
I'm not worried about background checks or being proven stable. Have no financial interest in taking care if her she only has Medicaid and Medicare. She has been neglects and by that I mean I walked into the nursing home and was told she needed clothing of which I promptly took care of that out if my own
Find the original court order on the guardianship. Within the document should be info as to how to deal with a resignation or death of the guardian. Was it an either/or guardianship appointment for Uncle &/or Aunt? If so, was your uncle current on all reporting & has your aunt been current since his death?
If there has been a gap in any of this, I'd bet you will need to get your own attorney to file your own request to become the new court appointed guardian.
If you can't find the judges orders, go on-line to your courthouse archives and download it for a nomimal fee. Most courthouses do this now. Or you go in person to get it either as a hard copy or a linked download. You will need to follow whatever system is set for your state to change the appointment. I'd get the past few years reports as well downloaded so you get a grasp on what grannies finances and her needs assessments have been.
If uncle was appointed guardian ages ago, it could be very different now to be appointed. In the past family was almost always appointed guardian as a matter of routine with little oversight. Now there are attys who are full time guardians appointed by the court & the judge has a list at the ready for this. You may need to be reviewed as suitable for guardianship....like have a good background check, have your own source of income, no legal issues, show stability, etc.
When is the next guardianship report due to be filed? You want to get your hearing on being appointed in & scheduled before the report due date. So you look like you understand the requirements on guardianship. Good luck.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
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I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
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APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
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If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
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This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
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You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
Good luck
I ask because I do not have kids to take care of me and I'm not sure who should be my guarantor/ POA
I'd see if the business office can provide you with a print out on grans account for this year AND if they have a copy of the states Medicaid co- pay. It could be called a Determination of Need letter. For my mom, she got 1 in January and then in June. Also you want to find out what the status is on Grans PNA ( personal needs trust) @ the NH.
Do you understand how all this is determined? If not, this is how it ran for my mom: mom got $ 900 in SS and 1K in retirement each month. She was mid 90's too & her income was really high for that age group. For both, an awards letter was sent out in Dec that states the amount of income to be paid for the next year. The awards letter is what state Medicaid program uses as the fixed # that their required copay will be based on. Now $ can be taken out for Medicare from the SS check & this right now is about $ 105 a mo. So for my mom, her co pay was $ 1800 but from the copay the state allows them a PNA. Personal Needs Allowance. PNA varies by state $ 35 - $ 105 a month. My mom was in TX which has theirs at $ 60. So every month, moms required by Medicaid co-pay/SOC to the NH was $ 1,740.00. ($1800 -$60).
The PNA does NOT need to be paid to or held by the NH. Most NH will press upon family to do this but they cannot require it. For my mom, her income was direct deposited to her account and I wrote a ck for $ 1740. Her bank account grew by $ 60 each month. Now I did have a PNA for her at the NH that $ was put into as needed. The PNA tends to be used to pay for beauty salon or extras they can buy if the NH has a canteen (my moms did and she would buy candy). Some NH charge a fee for cable or phone and the fee is amazingly the exact amount of the PNA.
It seems odd that only some of Grans $ is bring paid to the NH. Perhaps Auntie is holding the PNA $ back. Or has the wrong PNA $ amount. Or wants the NH to use any PNA $ built up to zero out before paying from current checks? Once you see the billing info, it should shed some light onto what is happening.
Personally I would avoid like the plague doing a representative payee. SSA will require all sorts of documentation to show intent which you don't have. Your not the existing DPOA. The old not-done-by-an-atty DPOA probably will look sketchy to SSA. If SSA find out there is a gap on compliance with Medicaid, they will probably suspend SS ck and open an investigation. perhaps contact APS as well. I'd bet SSA will take 3-4 mos to work this through too. All the while NH not getting paid. Plus representative payee has required reporting of where funds went with documentation which have to be done or ck is suspended. RP makes sense for those handling funds of children or the profoundly disabled but for a elderly in a NH in which almost all their $ has to be paid to the NH, it seems a total unnecessary to me. SSA seems to me to overreach to create situations that makes work for SSA staff.
let us know what happens too.
POA (you) unless that idea was in the original POA document so that won't work. Funerals are good for finding family information one did not know, maybe that will yield some possible pathways for a solution.
I so appreciate all the input and this has helped me wrap my head around this mess!
The big problem is that grannie isn't competent to do a new DPOA. That means guardianship route.
So what's the issue with Auntie? If she doesn't give an ants butt about gran, this will get ugly & complicated. If uncle was legally responsible for seeing that theNH got paid and they weren't paid, then those bills are going to be tied up in his estate proceedings. Really you don't want any of this to become your problem.
Maybe auntie has been too involved with her husbands care to deal with grannie. Perhaps she thought all $ issues were handled by the NH. Perhaps uncle didn't go into grannies situation as there were unresolveable conflicts......
But at some point soon, the NH will have to send a 30 day notice to whomever was responsible for grannie that she has to move for non-payment of her required by Medicaid copay or her SOC (share of cost) unless the past due is paid. The letter also gets CC'd to your local area on aging & a legal probono clinic if there is one in your county. As that person on file probably was your uncle is dead, ( & auntie likely isn't going to deal with this) what will likely happen is grannie will be made a emergency ward of the state. A court appointed temporary guardian will step in and be able to get her SS and pay the facility. They will file whatever against the estate for delinquencies as well I'd bet.
This issue probably happens often if the elder really lives long enough that they flat outlive their kids and all their friends. Good thing she has the Bushs! I'd ask billing office at the NH what their experience is for this situation.
In many ways, having a temporary guardian done is ideal as everything grannie is now out of aunties hands. The state appointed guardian, you want to work with as there will be a future hearing in which you petition the court to become grannies permanent guardian. The temporary guardian supports your petition so judge will appoint you & you accomplish this on your own without hiring an atty. If you want grannie to move to a NH closer to you, you get the info & details on a couple of places so the guardian can pick one of them. You get her moved while still under the court appointed guardian as they can get her moved much easier than you could. You do whatever to be helpful for the guardian so they become your ally. comprende?
Good luck, Let us know what happens too.
Am I assuming correctly that your Uncle's wife is of senior age herself? If so, as we age we find being responsible for an older person when we ourselves are seniors is very overwhelming.
Otherwise, contact an Elder Law attorney to guide you in the process.
If there has been a gap in any of this, I'd bet you will need to get your own attorney to file your own request to become the new court appointed guardian.
If you can't find the judges orders, go on-line to your courthouse archives and download it for a nomimal fee. Most courthouses do this now. Or you go in person to get it either as a hard copy or a linked download. You will need to follow whatever system is set for your state to change the appointment. I'd get the past few years reports as well downloaded so you get a grasp on what grannies finances and her needs assessments have been.
If uncle was appointed guardian ages ago, it could be very different now to be appointed. In the past family was almost always appointed guardian as a matter of routine with little oversight. Now there are attys who are full time guardians appointed by the court & the judge has a list at the ready for this. You may need to be reviewed as suitable for guardianship....like have a good background check, have your own source of income, no legal issues, show stability, etc.
When is the next guardianship report due to be filed? You want to get your hearing on being appointed in & scheduled before the report due date. So you look like you understand the requirements on guardianship. Good luck.