8 kids. Dads a hoarder. Found him on the floor- no food/watsr for four days so hes up the hospital 7days now. 6 of the kids went round and cleared all his hoard and made it into an 'acceptable house'. I feel this is wrong. I wanted to tell him straight away but my half sister told me not to. It was a danger to his health. Any advice? Hope that makes sense sorry am so angry about it all its hard to type. Thank you in advance
more info
I have tried to contact him repeatedly (he has a mobile) and am planning on telling him about the clear out. Sue told me a few days ago that I was not to tell him as he may discharge himself to come home. (I do not see that as a good enough reason as to not tell him) i feel so disloyal to my dad.
Will he be going to rehab after his hospitalization?
There has been no diagnosis of lacking mental capacity or personality disorders or dementia (a brain scan showed signs of dementia but this is not enough alone to diagnose and as I stated on a previous reply he has had dementia symptoms all his life nearly)
He has lived in his house as he does (well, until he went hosp.) for twenty years or more. (Worsening of hoarding coincides with lack of company in the house dad has always been a hoarder - as a child even)
He still runs a business, leads an extremerly active life (considering covid), all on his own. He was on the bus going shopping a few days before the event that led to him being on the floor in his bedroom for up to 4 days. He rarely has visitors (he does not permit most people entry). Hes 73.
We will have to wait and see what he needs.
Don't tell dad, he may not notice and actually be secretly grateful. What a wonderful task your siblings did for him.
Do you have a hoarding disorder yourself?
No I do not meet the dsm criteria for being a hoarder. The life buoy rings are my brothers he is a hoarder theyve been there ten years.he wont get rid of them. Like father like son lol.
Why do you want to insert yourself into the middle of this drama by being the one to "tattle"? If you weren't on board with the clean-out and weren't on board with keeping it a secret then don't be the one who tells him and don't be the one who takes him back to his house (if that's what happens next). Your dad will be angry no matter what at everyone. You need boundaries for yourself so that you can stop being sucked into his circus. Do you live with him? Perhaps you have a co-dependent relationship. It would probably be helpful for you to see the hoarding therapist so you can know where the healthy boundaries are. I wish you much peace in your heart as you try to help your father in a productive way.
dementia diagnosis is not clear. Dad has had symptoms of dementia since he was 6 years old so this makes the diagnosis even harder. He suffered with delerium on arrival to hosp but he is not delerious anymore. My dad left me on a train when I was 7 thats how forgetful he is. Am waiting until dad is discharged for a diagnosis and care/action plan.
If your Dad went without water and food for 4 days there is a problem. He may have Dementia. He has been in the hospital for 7 days, I am pretty sure rehab will be suggested, if to only get his strength back.
While Dad is in rehab have him evaluated. If they say he now needs 24/7 care then your family has a decision to make. If he can afford it, may want to place him in an Assisted Living. If no money, Long term care on Medicaid or someone cares for him in his home or their home.
dementia diagnosis is not clear. Dad has had symptoms of dementia since he was 6 years old so this makes the diagnosis even harder. He suffered with delerium on arrival to hosp but he is not delerious anymore. My dad left me on a train when I was 7 thats how forgetful he is. Am waiting until dad is discharged for a diagnosis and care/action plan.
The difference is that if you tell him now you will make him angry and afraid: he will learn that your evil siblings have stolen his treasures, and as you're angry about it on his behalf his reaction will be wholly, and worse than, negative.
If you wait until he gets home, he will see for himself that while some of his treasure is missing his house is now habitable. Possibly even sustainably habitable. Don't you want him to consider the advantages of what your siblings have done?
Please do not make this a negative thing. Be happy about it, even if you have to fake it.
I would be telling him how wonderful that items that just took up space and created confusion have been dealt with and how lovely that he can be in an environment that will help him focus on getting better and having more fun.
I think that you can help him see the good in this.
I do not agree with going behind our parents back and doing things but, I have tried to help my mom and it was a waste of 6 weeks of my life and now she lives in a house that is dangerous and it is embarrassing for her, meaning it impacts her social life. I promise you that I would be there clearing crap out the moment she gets hospitalized, because I know that it is beyond her ability to even see where to start. I think it is that way in many hording cases.
Just organizing the stuff would make a HUGE difference but, you can not even touch garbage without drama.
Maybe how they did it was not okay but, it was meant for good. Direct dad to see the benefits of having stuff gone. Don't make a big issue out of it and maybe he won't either.
Im not certain on dads diagnosis so will have to wait and see whether or not he is safe on his own I will definatley know upon his leaving hosp. Until then its a waiting game. :-)
I think dads right to have been/be consented superseeds any other factor to consider.
(A few year ago dad was hospitalised and the united front was not possible then (we all agreed to dad not having chocolate bought up but one of his kids bought him up a load of it (he was diabetic). Trying to get people to agree on anything is impossible. Dad should agree, for this is imperative to his wellbeing. Agreement between siblings holds no influence on dads wellbeing. (Otherwise all parents would be crazy lol.)
:-)
Once when my mom was in the hospital with her CHF and scheduled for rehab, it was decided we should make the home easier for her to navigate with the anticipated walker and/or wheelchair she might need and the possible need for caregivers.
My mother was very upset when she returned home at all she imagined was gone forever.
She had begun to isolate herself in one room of her home, often napping in her chair and sleeping on the sofa at night.
After the rehab it was nice for her to have room to safely utilize her entire home and not just live in one room. They removed all the things that had accumulated in hallways and on every flat surface. All the excess plastic, paper and cardboard alone made a huge difference. She had gotten where she saved every gift bag or box, tissue paper, ribbon, fabrics from old projects. Calendars and magazines. junk mail. Plastic bags from the grocery.
With time on her hands she would sit and think of things she thought were missing. After awhile she obsessed less over the imagined losses.
But there were times we had to go back through our thought process on why changes had to be made. I saw first hand how upsetting it was for her that others had purged her belongings even though the truly visible items were really just trash. It looked so much better she just knew important things were missing.
We would remind ourselves that she wanted to live at home. The space had to be adjusted. It was time to think about what worked for everyone involved, not just her. As it turned out she never needed to use the wheelchair to navigate her home but she did use the walker and life was much easier when she had overnight guests.
We also had to threaten a few of her nomadic grands to stop parking their treasures (clutter) in her home. it was easier after it was made clear that it would be dumped at their expense if left too long. They got the message.
My mom didn’t go looking for things to hoard but what came in was not leaving just because she didn’t need it. In time it worked out and it needed to be done but the distress she felt was real. So I do understand your concern.
Like most things there are degrees of mental illness and your dads distress may need treatment. Speak to his doctor.
If I were you I would be Switzerland on the subject. You didn’t do it but there is no need to be vindictive of the ones who did. Allow your father to have his own feelings not reinforced by your anger. You can provide comfort without placing blame.
Again, Your upset is not unreasonable except where it makes it harder for your dad to accept what can’t be undone.
I agree with waiting until he has finished his rehab. If it would make him so upset that he would cut short his treatment, then you really really need to discuss this with his doctor for appropriate precautions.
Let us know how it goes.
So, I have brainstormed taking feelings out of the equation : Man has hoarding problem, is up the hospital for reasons not yet defined. The house is not clear for a wheelchair access
People , would you think : "lets go round and bin all that rubbish out so he can get a wheelchair round and not consent him or even inform him it has been done until hes five minutes from home (he literally is 10mins from hosp)
or, like me , "lets consent/ let him know )...?
Obvs. I think dad should have been consented. But that is by the by now (too late)....
I would have helped with making it clear (not getting rid of anything just organising it) but I am a full time carer for my mum. I wanted to fo help make it suitable for wheechair access just in case (I would have asked before stepping foot in there) I would not have thrown anything away unless it was stale/mouldy. 60% of his hoard has been thrown away.
I feel no anger now. *sue had said he needs 24/7 care, and so the emotion was expressed in my use of the word 'angry' (though this turned out to be incorrect and not the diagnosis).
:-)
I think your siblings did him a huge favor by cleaning out his unsafe house. At least now he can get in-home help, which he needs even if it's just a few days a week to make sure he's eating, bathing, taking meds, etc.
Telling him now serves no other purpose than to agitate him when he's in the hospital and may well sign himself out AMA if you tell him. When he arrives home, I suggest as many of his children as possible be there to help him accept that his house is now cleared out. He also needs mental health treatment for the hoarding.
(what does AMA mean?)
I hope we can all be there for him but 4/7 already stated they will not or may not be able to commit to doing so.
He has not accepted the help that we have sought out for him. (Going back, say 7years, we started the ball rolling, We have no power to force him as he is not lacking capacity to act as his own advocate.
No agency that has the authority to do so has declared actions be made on his behalf (as in hes capable of 'helping himself' sort of thing).
Please god he comes out 'back to normal', though, if he doesnt I will do all I ought to to ensure the best for his wellbeing.
The brain scan is not definitive and dementia has not been diagnosed. (Bear in mind the famous study of nuns that showed signs of dementia within the brain yet did not 'have' dementia).
Regardless of intent and actual deeds done the fact stands that he has not been informed.
He will have to be informed.
The earlier the better surely .
(im still trying to get though to him on the phone not wishing for it to be the first thing i talk to him about but given how he is on the call i will better gauge what his condition is and then will be able to judge whether or not his mental capacity has diminished ; dependent on his best interest I will tell him
or not - If he is "normal daddy" I will let him know:-)
He would want to go back to his house more than anywhere else.
I live with mum am her FT carer so not possible to have him with me (I would have him here mum would not)
My brother plans on staying round dads when he comes out but not considering being a carer as of yet.
Did your nan ever go back to her home and, if so, what was her reaction?
Your father's children were trying to do a good thing for him, whether you agree with their decision and methodology or not. If you agitate him on purpose right now, you're trying to do a bad thing for him and it won't help him in any way, shape or form.
When he gets home from the hospital, I suggest you celebrate the nice condition of his home and commend the family for working so hard to help him restore safety and order to his life. Come to terms with and accept the fact that he does have dementia, whether the diagnosis or lack of one meets your specifications or not, and realize he should no longer be living alone. THAT is the main issue to focus on moving forward, not whether his children insulted him by cleaning up his hoarded home. He was clearly not safe living in those conditions, let's face it, and is lucky to be alive.
I wrote as I thought (in my question) So Shoot me.
There are no good guys. I do not think the deed horrible. It is his property we have no right to have cleared it (it was not legally* necessary)(nor was it recommended by his care team / they said it would need a "bit of de cluttering" so no excuse as to not telling him apart from "it may distress him". If it may, then it will, and he has to eventually find out.
He should know of matters directly concerning him is my main premise here.
He is not lacking capacity even if he does have dementia (please god hes best as can be)
He is master of his own ship, regardless of who wants to take the wheel and steer in a 'better' way.
We have no idea how dad will react.
Please refrain from diagnosing.No doctor has confirmed dementia. (Though this is not even confirmed as doctors words come to me second hand so amount to hearsay)
Fairs fair. To accept he has dementia is to accept he is a hoarder. And therefor to act accordingly so as not to endanger his wellbeing (the deed is potentially hazardous to his wellbeing as stated by hoarding specialists.)
.
(AMA (thanks) by the very premise they have not discharged him he is evidently not fit for discharge (but this could also be due to the fact that necessary parties required for his diagnosis/treatment plan are not available (ie. he could be 'physically' fit for discharge but not tick all the boxes required to meet discharge criteria. Ive experienced this with mum. I am not certain as no contact with hosp.)
Ive no idea how dad will take it. It may not agitate him at all. I assume how he would react based on my understanding of him; that alone is not enough to be certain of how he will react. He must be told about it before he can react. He must be told 'whatever the weather'. If its going to rain better he has an umbrella. If hes going to have a bad turn when informed its better hes in a place designed to help him with that. None of us kids are qualified in any matters relating to welfare or healthcare (if theyre not one and the same ...?)
Happy to hear that she was grateful :-) hopefully dad will be and this will all be a waste of time!
We have discussed him living in a home because of his hoarding before (not like that would fix his hoarding). The suggestion was made as he loves company and he is deprived of it as no visitors can visit so a care home would be more social plus he lives on chocolate and takeaways so home better for nutritional reasoNs.
He does/did (we will now have the discussion with him again) not want to go to assisted living. He wants to live there (he loves his home, naturally. Plus it is/ was full of all his favourite stuff lol)
We booked storage for it to be stored but another kid got a van to take the stuff away. I thought storage a better idea as did others but no vote was made on the matter. (Though all present loaded van & I would say I partook) most of his stuff has been binned. Some has just been organised.
"Rules"are doc phone sue. We asked to be added to call doc said no. We cant visit dad bc of covid.
A couple days before your father is supposed to go home, act excited and tell him that everyone has a big surprised for him when he gets home.
Put up some party decorations, get a cake, make a sign that says, 'Welcome Home' like a little party. He probably will be happy that all of you are there and not so angry about the cleaning up.
If he mad and starts carrying on, do what parents so often do to us. Put him on a guilt-trip about all the trouble you and your siblings to and that you all just wanted to surprise him and get his house looking good.
Also, your siblings were not wrong to clean up his house if it was an unsanitary and dangerous place for him to be in. In a hoarder's house it is too overwhelming for them to clean it up themselves even when they're not elderly and especially if they have dementia. You state in a comment that your dad has dementia but is not lacking in mental capacity. Yes, he is if he has it. Hoarding is a type of mental illness in of itself. Your siblings had to try and make his environment safe to reduce the the risk of another trip to the hospital.
Good idea :-) Hell defo love the cake. And the attention. (Who wouldnt)
Could that backfire though: the 'upset ' dad will feel will only be delayed till after the party. (We'd have to party every day forever lol
Was planning to be there as many of us kids as can go and have a sort of "party" outside his front garden but good way to put it. Thanks.
I love the guilt trip idea but Dad has no empathy (evidently). Daddy does not feel guilt or if he does he has rarely expressed it to anyone that has pulled him up on his causing hurt. So that may not work, but I shall give it a try :-)
He has expressed to me how overwhelming it is and has asked me and a few others previous to this to help him with it. When we go round to help him he does not permit us to take any action. Even my house overwhelms me sometimes. Definitely overwhelming. But definitely capable of asking for help also.
Having a mom who is a hoarder and not a terrible one--no major vermin infestation or rotting food--but she's sliding into that. YB had removed a piece of the dropped ceiling and I did see some evidence of mice.
She ASKED me, about 6 years ago, to please come clean and organize her apartment to be 'like your (my) house'.
The 'joy' ended within an hour when she realized that in order to create organized empty spaces out of piles of books, puzzles, newspapers and 4 curio cabinets jammed with 'stuff' there would have to be about a 50% reduction in her 'stuff'. She could not part with anything. Things of great value are snugged up against rotting plastic frogs bought at the dollar store. EVERYTHING is of value to her.
I lasted almost 2 days and went home, sobbing, with a massive migraine. She actually went out to the trash with her 'grabby stick' to try to retrieve the rotted plastic frog, which to this day is still in a place of honor. It's my reminder that there is no point in cleaning for her.
HOWEVER--as soon as she falls again, Sis and I have already planned an
'unasked for' cleaning. For safety safe, mostly, and to give her some room to move around. I'm embarassed for people to come visit her, the place reeks and is so messy. BUT it's HER stuff and dam&ed be the rest of us who don't 'like it'.
So--my guess is your dad is going to be furious and not the least bit grateful. Same as I expect of mom when this happens.
Hoarding is a disease that can be mild or severe. Mom's is mid-range, I'd guess. She does allow trash to go out, but only the night before trash day. And as she is incontinent, and won't let her soggy depends go out until Sunday night, it gets really ripe in her place. She cannot smell anything any more.
Unless a person WANTS to change, they won't. My DH saw me de junking (the Marie Kondo method) and he did his clothes and drawers and has kept them up for 7+ years. There's hope!
I know it is pointless, its so true dad has to be the one to help himself. As i said in other post like an addict.
Thing is dad doesnt meet the 'norm' (who does) but really never has done.so for his house to have old food etc not so unusual considering how he is.
He will eat anything. I really mean that. He eats Red meat that has gone green. (He was a post war baby and deprived of food - im not a psychologist but obvs. Had impact on him.( He has never had food poisoning) his constitution is A class.
Things he eats would kill most people.
Dad's done similar things. Nothing is to be wasted with dad. But he really does have everything. Classic motors out the front (6 motors I think all together). All tech stuff. He does'nt have newspapers and the like but loads of paperwork. About 100 phones and tablets that he cant hear ringing to find in piles of clothes. Thousands of clothes.
It is a large three bedroom house with front parkimg garden and back middle size garden.
He still runs a business though, For all his faults. I always say I could not manage doing everything my dad does (not just being dads little girl here) he is as strong as a bull. Has been and still is a sucessfull business owner. And few people Ive heard of let alone know have his constitution.
This is a good example of how "strong" (i dont have the vocabulary) and how independent my dad IS (hope its not 'was' just yet):
About 5 year ago he had a serious collision; he broke his back, leg, pelvis and other bones. When the doctor came in to tell dad what the diagnosis was he said "youve got the wrong person" he could not believe he had those ailments he felt fine. He was eating an indian takeaway along with an egg sandwich - at the same time- teo hours after admission. He was knocked out cold of course from all of this. Two hours later!
He had been on a motorbike with only a helmet on and gone head first through the front window of a transit van. He was out two days later being dad like nothing had happened.
While he was up the hosp. We cleared his house (nowhere near to how we've done it this time) so it was wheelchair suitaable (he was supposed to be using one but he didnt). we informed him we were doing it. We did'nt get rid of anything. He moaned a bit about not being able to find things after. But no biggie at all. He was informed though I think it makes such a difference.
wishing you all the best
I do understand your anger. My sister did the exact same thing while Mom was in the hospital and Dad was in respite care. I realize the house needed to be decluttered for safety reasons but sis was ruthless about it and got rid of a lot of things that Mom cared about, nice things. Mom was beside herself when she came home. She never did stop asking where her favorite stuff had gone..
I know hind sight is 20 20 and safety must come first but perhaps there are kinder ways....
Hopefully his most prized possessions are still there and we only got rid of the unwanted stuff....... heres hoping :-)
But you are determined to be his champion and to tell him and nobody is going to change your mind. As that's so, make sure you tell him the good bits. Remember that you are aiming to reduce his trauma and not to feed the fear and anger. Deal with your indignation towards your siblings separately.
Unable to amend My inital question.
Bit of a catch-22 statement there ;as would be no tauma (*upon finding out his home cleared) had he been CONSENTED.
(IT IS ILLEGAL TO DO WHAT HAD BEEN DONE) (I thought everyone knows that went
without saying right... no? Or is everyone a crook on here lol)
No order was made to go to his house, let alone go inside or take aanything.
(The only time his healthcare team have spoken regarding his hoarding was when his mental health nurse said "we need to discuss"... (as in Dad and whomever else HE may wish to involve) ..."the house and it probably needs a bit of uttering "
They have factual evidence of his hoarding they know how it is round his house.
Would love ice creams/ comfortable home to be the answer....( they will prescribe him that as treatment when he has a break down finding out weve all broken into his house and stolen most of his stuff .....
sorry couldnt help myself lol)
Dad wants to live how he lives.
He can run his business, go where ever he wishes, car until a while ago and bus and train now. Holidays often abroad/has chalet and caravan he loves to go down every oppertunity. Socialises more than most 20 year olds (until whatever got him on the floor obviously- though hes already made friends with a man on his ward!).
We all live how we choose to live - its his choice - its his house and sod* anyone who dares to tell/force another person to conform to their ideals on how they ought to run their house.
I am not/was not angry. I had just been incorrectly informed that my dad "now needs 24/7 care" (I didnt know what I was feleing to be frank, thank god, having never heard such traumatisinng words ever in my life) he does not need care.
So whether or not was for good intentions; it could infact be the worst possible thing we could have done and could possibly make dad worse. It has a high likelihood of adversly affecting him to such an extent he will never recover from the betrayal and thats not my opionion thats an experts.
:-)
Don't tell him anything at this time.
I know you don't believe this now, but you are lucky to have that many siblings helping out and hopefully when he does come home, they will spare him some time helping him keep his home straightened up and not run and hide when he really needs help. I think you are really just worried about him and the diagnosis and how you will be able to contribute.
Hope this all works out and you will let us know what has come about with your Dad. Mine passed away 15 yrs ago and I miss him still to this day. He was never a clutter bug, but my Mom on the other hand-she makes up for it. lol Not as bad as she used to be though.
Take care and hope your Mum is doing well, too. You have so much on your plate. sending hugs from the US.
(Yes!havent even touched on his character really yet it is still evident lol. He is definately "a character". (Nicknames "a**hole" "mouth" "smile" "blue eyes" "handsome")
No one who spends a minute with him can forget him.Hes Not everybodies cup of tea but who is.
Feel like saying this please excuse just writing current thoughts:
He cant swim; yet taught me how to swim & dive (in the english channel).
I could ride a bike (two wheels) at 2 1/2 year old.
Tie my own shoe laces age 3.
Ride (horses) at 4.
Drive 'stick' at 5.
He was prodominent reason for these axhievements (mum rarely came out of the house) .....