Behavior I expect/need from elderly father. Am I being unfair?

You described my dad. I let him get away with it for awhile then I learned how to say NO. Start saying it. It gets easier each time you do. I also learned not to jump when he wanted something. I would do it but on my time schedule. I was able to retrain him. He still may demand but he does accept a NO when I say it.

You will probably have to set boundaries with your dad according to what you are willing/able to do and how much time per week you can reasonably give and stick to it. It's doubtful that his way of thinking will change. I think some elders truly don't realize when they are being difficult, especially if they have cognitive difficulties, while others realize it but maybe have always been this way, thus not likely to change. Still, you can decide what works for you and draw the line. Aides could perhaps be hired for anything he truly does need help with, while you can keep encouraging him to do the things he can do for himself. I believe it's really in the elder's best interest to do what they can as much as they can, for as they say, if you don't use it, you lose it.

Two hours (4 total) is a long hall. I agree with you fully on all counts especially doing for himself if he is capable. You need to sit down with him and tell him he is a selfish man. Your time is not his. You have a family that is primary. He can be a part of it or not. He needs to take advantage of the resources available. Because, u no longer are at his beck and call. That you do for him out of love not duty. But, lately its felt like a duty with no respect from his side. You r no longer going to take it.

Maybe you can set up time once a month or so to spend the night or weekend. You can run errands and go out to dinner. Have some Dad time. He is probably lonely and doesn't know how to express it?

Boundries is the word and you set them.

While I am firm believer in if you can, take care of your parents, I am also a firm believer in not judging those don't. Not everyone can, and you cannot always know the whole story or outcome.
Before getting to the point, I like to point out that age cannot be blamed on problems. More often than not, it is bad, unhealthful habits that eventually catches up to people. Treat yourself right when you are younger, including things you hate, like proper exercise, proper eating with junk in very moderation, rare small drinking or none at all and never smoke do things to keep the brain sharp, be good about medical help when need it and follow through, etc., then you can be independent when you are elder. Also, deciding to slow down after a certain age certainly does not help. You all the more need activity when elder, even start by chair exercises. Gotta keep mobile to keep from getting immobile. Also, think young to treat yourself better. I have a very independent almost 93 year-old great-aunt. She has a couple things going on, but she beats her stuff instead of her stuff beating her. If there is one advice I can tell young folks, your life's goal should be caring for yourself the right way now so, unless something freak happens, you can live freely when you are elder. Save something every month, so when you get elder, not everything falls on the kids; instead, they can check in on you, but still live their lives. After all, you wanted to live yours, right? Taking care of kids is way different than caring for parents.
Onto the point now, I totally get it. My mother, if she was living with me, and on top of it, I got my own baby ( a mid-teen), my mother and I can be alright over the phone sometimes, but in person, in five minutes already something to pick at me about. She is miserable about her life, and because I'm smaller than her, I guess, easier to take it out on me because I cannot stand up to her. Some of her relatives think I'm wrong for her not living with me, a couple of them, they totally understand. Besides, I am a mom myself, and it's a struggle to care for myself. The fact you have family, your spouse and kids comes first. The three reasons, along with parents who had abused their kids, are reasons many kids do not be primary caregivers, and also knowing, if they take that responsibility, they are not likely to get any help, even if they get sick and bedridden themselves. Being elder does not make one entitled, and having kids make no one entitled, even if 100 years old. If you are elder, if you can do something yourself, be glad you can, and be an example to young ones by them seeing that you do what you can, even if you hate it or don't feel like it. As for having kids, it does not guarantee they can one day give up working, don't have their own spouses and kids to care for when something happens. As for nursing homes, kids placing a parent in a nursing home in itself is not wrong if they need to. If they do not plenty research first or take time to visit to see how things are going is a bad thing. But I do understand if parents were abusive or neglectful, they may not want to be bothered. And if the parents chose not to care for themselves with the best amount of effort, why expect bail out?
I am not saying this to dissuade anyone from being their for their parents and care for them if they can. But, I believe that parents should not hold it against their kids if they feel they need to put them in a home as long as they are there to check on them often enough. Most people do no want to go to a home, but just like young people always have to do things they hate, being elder does not change that.
Raising kids, until 18 or out of high school, at least with them you can set rules and expect them to follow. Parents will use the fact they are parents to only do want they want and not listen to their kids and not realize it is a much bigger sacrifice to care for them than it is kids.

Paul, you are not stupid. Until you say 'no', your father has no need or incentive to work out how to do things for himself. When you say no, of course there will be huge ructions. So what? Your father has the money to make sure that he won't die from personal neglect, particularly if you make sure that he has all the phone numbers to get deliveries etc. The biggest risk for you is probably that a gold digger will find him, flatter him, do all the right things, and want all his money. Even that may be better than ruining your own life, making your wife angry, and leaving your kids feeling that they came second. Just do it!

Once, Paul. Once, he asked you to travel the two hours to take him to an appointment, and you agreed to it. Under protest, I grant you, and it cost you actual money which must have hurt, but you did agree. Don't do it again. But let it go.

Look, you're not being unfair to him. You are being unfair to yourself in that you are expecting your father to behave like someone he is not.

At the moment, you are feeling frustrated and put upon because he isn't stoical, considerate, self-sufficient as far as possible and grateful for everything else. If he suddenly started being all of those things... would you even recognise him?

Also, I have to say: apple - tree. Your father has a wide range of options and possibilities that he doesn't follow up, for whatever reason; and then he complains about how much pain he's in and how difficult everything is. Hmmm.

These are the rules:
He can say what he likes, you decide what you do.
He can do what he likes, you decide what you contribute.
Stop wishing he was different from what he is actually like.

Paul, I have been following along your issues with your Dad’s need for control. I’m going to look at this from your wife’s standpoint. Your question is are you unfair to him!? I don’t think so, but it sounds like you’re unfair to her. You can’t stand up to him, let him manipulate you, and then grouse about it. Your small victories against him still piss you off that they had to be won. You let him roil you and consume your thoughts and tap your energies. It’s not fair to her or your family. Your wife has understandably given up on dealing with him. But you can’t or won’t back away. It’s not a pretty picture and I hope it’s not doing irreparable harm to your marriage.

I’m sorry if I’m too blunt or offended you, sometimes I can get that way, especially regarding something that I personally couldn’t tolerate. I guess I’m just asking for you to Please think of Her as your #1 responsibility in your dealings with him. When he’s on the phone demanding something, take a breath, picture your wife’s pretty face instead and react how she would want. Maybe that image will help. Just a thought and good luck.

Do you have a regularly scheduled visit weekly, biweekly, monthly that you see him and help him?
If not, I highly recommend that you sit down with your calendar and your wife and children's calendar and figure out a day monthly that you can give just to him.

Then you can say, dad when I am there on --- we will take care of that. If you need it sooner here are the options.

My dad played the heavy handed, I'm more important than anyone else. He even told my husband, if we could get rid of Ray we would be okay. Ray being my husband.

One time he was told to not contact me for a week, he thought he would be in charge and call because he needed something, I knew he was all stocked up before he was told no contact. He was sucking the life out of me. So it ended up being about 2 weeks because every time he called it added a day to the no contact. I didn't answer the phone, I let him leave messages and I didn't call back. He finally got that I have a life and you can be part of it, with boundaries, no boundaries, no part. It is hard to stand up to our parents but we are not little kids and they stopped being in control when we started paying our own bills.

Let us know how your regularly scheduled visits and strong boundaries help.

Dad is a bully and sounds like he has been one all his life. He is also seemingly a narcissist and these people live to control and beat down others.  It is what life is about to them.  So trying to argue with them is simply giving them openings to do what they love best - "win" by beating you down.  I found it wisest to decide where my boundaries were and say "no" to anything that crossed them.  Just "no", no explanations, arguments, trying to reason, etc.  After all, you have tried to get your point across, right? Doesn't seem like he wants to even consider it.   I found some peace is realizing that some things never change - but I can control my response.

Complete villain. Fancy wanting to know that you've arrived safely after a long flight - and it could take as much as thirty seconds to send him a message, couldn't it?

Paul, I think you are becoming allergic to your father. The man can't voice an opinion without your feeling that he is borderline abusive.

He can't prevent a 48 year old man from getting alcohol poisoning in Prague if he likes it. And he can't force you to phone him, or choose your lunch menu for you, or hide the dessert trolley.

He can't do anything to you, in fact, can he. Neither can he do anything to ensure that you and your brother are safe and prospering. Not a thing. Perhaps it would be better for him if he didn't care, and did not exhibit all this control-freakery, but instead he drones on and on about it and gets up your nose.

What do you *want* him to do?

Paul; I went on holiday with some girlfriends this week (to Florida).

As we left, the one who was staying for an extra day asked if we would text her when we landed so she'd know that we arrived safely in NY.

It's actually an expression of caring in most people, not of control.

I understand that with parents, it's sometime hard to sort what is what. And your dad does sound terribly annoying. But might I suggest that your reactions suggest to me that you might be tremendously helped by some counseling sessions.

I guess from your answers you really want confirmation to not have contact.

You are a big boy, you don't need anyone telling you it's okay to completely ignore your dad because his behavior is more than you can deal with.

Block his number and you won't have to get all pizzy because he's calling you. You won't even know he has made the call.

You can expect all you want - why should your dad change? He is not likely to change. So YOU have to change - how you respond. It is totally OK to set boundaries and enforce them. "NO" is not a four letter word. Do what YOU WANT for your dad out of love and compassion - say NO to the rest.

You seem to want your dad to figure out that he is being a bully and he will never acknowledge it. So do what YOU WANT.

If you are so on edge from having dealt with him lately - take a break. Go no contact for awhile.

But do what YOU want, and stop being angry with your dad for being like he is.

About 15 years ago I started setting boundaries with my mom - who of course raised holy hell about it. We went no contact several times for about six months at a time. NOW I have a good relationship with her because she knows what will happen if she doesn't respect my boundaries.

now am working on boundaries with my sister - who is a manipulative bully. Take the emotion out of it and the wishes out of it. What will you accept / not accept? What will you do? when my boundaries are pushed - I firmly say "NO" and if they get to badger or bully I exit, physically or hang up phone. "I'm sorry, I won't let you speak with me that way. I love you. Good bye" and repeat, repeat, repeat.

Good luck

I think some people were a little tough on you here but they do have a point. You can't change him, you can only change how you react.

You don't have to answer his phone calls or call him every day. Figure out what you can or are willing to do and that is it. Spend one Saturday a month with him taking care of whatever he wants rather than ruining every weekend with smaller trips. Only call once a week and at a set time. No dropping everything to tend to one of his 'wants'....you can take care of it on your monthly visit. If he gets nasty give him a warning. If he doesn't listen cut that monthly visit short and leave. Baby steps to taking your life back and giving yourself peace. Sure he will get the upper hand on occasion but it will get better.

People tend to forget that they are and ADULT now and it is OK to say NO to your parent. World will not end no matter how they react.

Stop trying to appease him. If he makes some PA comment agree with him and move on. If he says "well it looks like I will be all alone on the holiday" reply with "yes it does look that way, how about that weather we are having!". If he makes comments about how you live your life try to ignore. If you can't, ask him what makes him think he gets a say in how you live your life. Or remind him that his opinion on this subject does not matter. If he says because he is your father remind him that only works if you are under 18, not 50.

Your father isn't going to change. Take a break from him and figure out how you want to move forward. Get over the guilt of 'leaving him alone'. Most people like this are alone because they have driven people away. That is not your fault. My grandmother used to say people didn't want you when you were old and grey. The reality was that people didn't want to be around her because she was miserable and nasty. But those are things she could have done something about. It is easier to blame something she could not change like being old.

I wish you luck.

Paul, your dad is and always probably has been a micromanager and a manipulator and a complainer. As Dr. Paul Chafetz says in his book "lose the surprise". (You should read his book btw) You know that’s how he is, and wishing it wasn’t so and that he will change is wishful thinking. As people get older their traits usually intensify. Everyone here has said to set boundaries. If you give in to him out of fear, he will keep it up because you reward his behavior. Have you ever gone to counseling to find out how to deal with him and understand your lack of knowing how to honor your own life and that of your family? People don’t demand respect they earn it. Father or not.
I can tell you’re extremely frustrated and wish him to be different but he can’t be. Accept who he is by losing the surprise every time he has inappropriate behavior with his boundaries. Talk with a counselor and read Chavetz's book and also a good one by Henry Cloud on boundaries.

Hi Paul,
So you need better boundaries and Dad wants your time and attention. What to do? Self-care first is always my go to strategy. The more you can shift your perspective and see Dad like a two year old seeking attention, that might help to feel more compassion towards him. It wont get any easier as he gets older, colder and lonelier. You can't change him. Save yourself and your family. Set hard boundaries if you need to. It will be painful to keep. Best of luck! Sorry, no easy answers.

I hope you and your family had a good Christmas, Paul. Best wishes, Margaret

Hmmm.... maybe we have the same dad? Mine is 92, not sure how old yours is. You have to set boundaries. This was hard for me to learn but after 4 years of my dad's behavior like this, I'm getting pretty good at it. If he acts like a toddler, he gets treated like a toddler. That's not to say I don't lose my patience and yell sometimes. I get so frustrated with his behavior at times that I can't stand it. We have had the ringer turned off on the phone for about a year now. The calls were non-stop. My husband will not answer if he sees him calling. The phone flashes and I can see who is calling when the TV is on plus there is still my cell phone. He knows to call my cell if he really needs to get hold of me and even at that, I don't always answer. I'm not 'on call'. He has care that comes in and they take him to appointments, shopping, etc. I don't let him bully me around anymore. I'm sure that sometimes people think I'm insensitive but I'm not. In order to keep some sanity and have my own life, this is what I have to do. But even with this, sometimes I sit back and think about how he has everyone wrapped around his finger, swirling around him to take care of his every need when he's very capable to do many things on his own. It astounds me sometimes. It may require you to tell him that your own life and your own family come first sometimes. I have had to tell my dad this. My counselor has taught me 3 things: 1) It's ok to say 'no'; 2) You have to set boundaries; and 3) The needs of yourself and your family come first. I live by this every single day. Doesn't always work but I try. As far as getting him to appointments, if he has the money, he can hire a care service to take him. This has been a huge help to me. But once he sees what it costs, he might decide to take a taxi. It's OK to say no. Tell him you can't take him. He'll take a taxi.

A surprising update yesterday.
Brother contacted me. Hes spoken to my Dad and his (soon to be) wife is going to be Dad carer. (She doesn't really have a job).

Worlds stupidest idea if you ask me. Dad doesn't need a carer, he just needs to listen to what people tell him, be a little more flexible, and make an effort.

Of course, my SIL is hoping to get money for this. (Not sure how it'd work whether she could claim carers allowance or something?)

What I KNOW will happen now is he will get even worse. He will now do NOTHING for himself AT ALL. Dad listen to his own hype - if he needs a carer he must be ill. He will get worse and worse. She will turn him into a helpless man-baby.

Of course, lets me off the hook a little but I don't think they've thought this through. I can tell you now that when SIL is on holidays hes going to expect me to fill in as replacement "carer". Not happening.

In all honestly, Dad health is very good for his age. He can walk (with a stick) about half a mile. Not bad for 84. Hes just more interested in making no effort at all. Hes my Dad but I find it a little pathetic to be honest.

But what can I do? They've already offered so hes well up for the idea.....

Honestly, I'm keeping out of it. Washing my hands of it all.

Have you spoken to your dad's doctor at all, which I think CountryMouse recommended? I'm not sure how the NHS works, but can someone claim a carer's allowance without the need being certified by an MD? Has your brother been in touch with the doctor?

I doubt if your father is getting PIP. This is a disability benefit, it's not age-related. [I've just checked. You can't claim PIP over state pension age. Whatever he's getting, it's not that.]

You can't claim Carer's Allowance if your take-home pay is more than £120 a week, and you have to commit to 35 hours per week actually caring - five hours a day in his home. Really?

What exactly have they offered your Dad?

Is this her second marriage too, and if so does she have kids?

Shortcut - here are the rules:

Eligibility
The person you care for

The person you care for must already get one of these benefits:
Personal Independence Payment - daily living component
Disability Living Allowance - the middle or highest care rate
Attendance Allowance
Constant Attendance Allowance at or above the normal maximum rate with an Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit
Constant Attendance Allowance at the basic (full day) rate with a War Disablement Pension
Armed Forces Independence Payment
Your eligibility
You must earn no more than £120 a week after tax and expenses. Expenses can include:
50% of your pension contributions
some of the costs of caring for your children or the disabled person while you’re at work
All of the following must also apply:
you’re 16 or over
you spend at least 35 hours a week caring for someone
you’ve been in England, Scotland or Wales for at least 2 of the last 3 years (this does not apply if you’re a refugee or have humanitarian protection status)
you normally live in England, Scotland or Wales, or you live abroad as a member of the armed forces
you’re not in full-time education
you’re not studying for 21 hours a week or more
you’re not subject to immigration control
You might still be eligible if you’re moving to or already living in another EEA country or Switzerland.
You might be eligible for Carer’s Credit if you’re not eligible for Carer’s Allowance.

DLA is being phased out. Who is helping your father with his social security claims? Does he actually have a key worker, do you know? I'm not criticising - honest! - because I don't see this as your job in the first place; but clearly you're not up to date on what benefits he's getting and what he's been assessed for, so somebody must have got him this far and I really doubt he's managed it unaided.

Don't be angry with your brother and fSIL - I expect they hear just as much unreasonable, passive-aggressive whingeing as you do and no doubt they were trying to help in their way. It's hardly surprising they didn't get any further forward than you have, and it's no more so that as comparative novices they rushed in with a brilliant idea and then - oops - found it wasn't that brilliant after all.

The person responsible for your father's care, at this point, is your father. There are many solutions and options available to him. If he will not accept them, that is his problem, not yours, not your brother's, and most certainly not your fSIL's. Detach.

That was a typical senior response though.....if they see someone has 'spare time' then they assume it is owed to them.

Paul;

Most folks, as they get older, see the world only through the lens of their needs, wants and desires.

Your dad DOES sound more narcissistic than the norm, but you're not going to change HIS behavior.

The ONLY thing you have any control over is YOUR behavior. If you've been groomed all your life to give your parent your all, it's a tough pattern to break. Have you done any reaching about "detaching with love" or "setting boundaries with narcissistic parents" ?

Good job not taking the bait. Trust me, if you keep this up his PA comments will be less and less. He wants a reaction, don't give it to him. If it ever gets too much either you leave right away or hang up the phone. You forget that you actually have all the power here. He wants something from you, not the other way around.

Sibling rivalry? A bit territorial of dad? It’s classic. Careful dad doesn’t play one of you against the other. We sometimes think our situation is so unique when it’s as old as time.

As his health truly declines, your dad will need you both.

I encourage you to meet with brother to discuss sharing the errands and giving brother the benefit of your ideas and experiences (and you listen to his) so you are working together and not against one another.

The last thing you want is a true crisis and the two of you at odds with one another.
That also happens frequently.

97, what you say rings so true. Compare and contrast my DH's family in which MIL talked constantly about family sticking together but constantly trash talked about her kids to the other siblings. In the end, there was no team and my husband simply walked away, rather than squabble. My mother ( never realized how wise this was) never talked about her kids to the other kids. She call and say " call your brother". I'd know something was up, but she wanted me to hear it from them.

Paul, don't let your dad get between you and your brother!

My father would try and pull saying stuff about me. ..... to me. He hasn’t seen me is weeks when I was there days ago. He is running out of something and you find he still has plenty. Just a ploy to get you to his place and pay attention or FUSS over him. You’d think by now he’d realize I don’t fuss over anyone. I’ll help you out but it is all business with me. Coming to his place to do his chores or errands is not a social engagement for me. It is work and I treat it as such.

Paul, you're the successful one who has sought his fortune and has a thriving young family. Why do you expect your Dad and your brother - who, shall we say, have not quite kept up with the times on your terms - to understand your lifestyle, or working patterns in IT services?

It doesn't *matter* what they think. It only matters what you do. You are going to have grasp this important point.

Does future SIL have children?

Have to admit I thought of you this morning. Last night my father went to the ER with a fever as he had a procedure yesterday. I don't even get involved with any of his ER trips anymore as they happen so often. This morning at 5am the phone rings. I don't even answer as I know it has to be about him. It rings again so I answer and it is my father. Now this is a man that can't seem to do anything for himself anymore but he knew how to call my home from a hospital bed. Apparently they were releasing him but the transport company was delayed in picking him up and he needed me to come and take him back to assisted living. I tried explaining to him that they would be taking him back but he was having none of that. After 20 minutes he finally got in that I was not running up there I got the ever famous "well keep in touch". (Just like Paul's dad) He insisted I needed to come up and get his bills to be paid. I told him my son would be stopping by to pick those up for me. Again not happy because it is not ME that is doing it. I will go up soon but it will be totally on my terms.