I have proof through literally hundreds of voicemails my mother has left for me that she is showing signs of dementia. Both of these people refuse to meet with me to see and hear the evidence that shows my mom has dementia. Or let me rephrase that, they will meet with me to discuss, but ONLY if mom is present. According to the executive director, mom is "of sound mind" which she is not and this person would realize this if she heard the multitude of voice mails that I have. Even the nurse of the assisted living has said that she is able to pass the "quick" test but if given the more in-depth testing, she knows she would fail. Yet I am unable to get her to administer the more in-depth testing. And now the nurse has backpedaled on her statement since the executive director stepped in. What do they have to gain? I have a signed medical POA but I cannot get them to hear my evidence and get the POA invoked. Every day mom threatens to leave the assisted living and go back to her hoarding house which is not safe and 7 hours away from me. I am an only child so it's just me, my husband and my 3 kids as her only family to take care of her. As long as they won't invoke the POA, she could literally walk out of there at any time. She is talking about driving again even though she has cataracts. It is NOT in her or anyone's best interest to leave there. Why can't I get these people to understand? All the proof is there. She never knows what day it is, what time it is, calls 20+ a day, calls and leaves the same voicemail over and over, calls at all hours and wakes us up, calls and leaves harassing messages, cannot compose a grocery list, tells us one item so we go get it and drop it off, next day another item, next day another item, is confused about everything. She wants to spend money she doesn't have. My husband has financial POA over her and according to a local attorney, it is in force, but she doesn't realize that even though he has helped her with paying bills since her stroke in 2011. We have explained repeatedly the amount of income she has each month and she cannot remember/comprehend. She thinks she gets twice the amount of social security than she really does. She threatened to kill herself so they took her to the ER. After that she was scheduled for a psych eval, which she then cancelled. I feel like not only is my mother insane, but so are the people running the assisted living. We talked to an attorney about guardianship/conservatorship which is going to cost $5,000+. It just seems ridiculous when if the nurse/doctor over that assisted living would just do their job and invoke medical POA, it wouldn't cost us anything. My family and I are at our wits' end with this. We just run in circles and we don't get any further. Mom is a big "showtimer" any time she is being assessed. So talks a lot and has them convinced that her mind is intact even though we as her family see 50 examples to the contrary every day. Can these people just keep running us around, never agree to meet without mom present, keep denying that she is showing signs of dementia, and keep refusing to look at our evidence that proves it? I don't want to get into a big lawsuit as I don't have money for that. I just want them to DO THEIR JOB. A co-worker was in a similar situation, same state and everthing. The doctor approached them and said "You're now POA." It was that easy. We used to compare notes on who was crazier, my mom or theirs. They were both showing equal signs of dementia. My co-worker has everything in hand and under control, doing what needs to be be done. I continue to flounder with people at the "assisted" living that refuse to be of any "assistance" at all. I am betting nobody here as been through this! But can someone please advise?! How can I get this accomplished without spending a ton? Mom needs to stay where she is. We've already moved her twice. It is taking a toll on us financially, mentally, emotionally, physically. Our life is pure hell.
If your husband has been acting as her FPoA, how is he able to and you not? Has he read the document?
Once you do what the MPoA document requires then you can make decisions in your Mom's best interests. You can submit it to the admin at her facility and any other medical clinic, institution, hospital, etc.
Once a doctor establishes that she has cognitive/memory impairment (and not a UTI or any other non-dementia cause of her symptoms), then what? Are you trying to keep her from leaving AL and returning to her hoarded house? If she's a wander or flight risk then the facility may recommend MC for her, unless you can discuss medication with her doctor to address her anxiety.
Or, you can go with her to speak with a therapist who specializes in hoarding disorder. Hoarding is a mental illness and doesn't just "go away" on its own. If you both went then you'd also benefit by learning how to engage with her in a more calm, peaceful and productive ways. I hope this information helps you!
An exam and documentation that she has dementia will allow your POA to become "active"
Once she is diagnosed the move then should be to Memory Care she probably should not remain in AL.
She will decline and that will mean she needs more help than can be given in AL. And theoretically in AL she can leave at anytime she wishes. This can be a problem since AL is not locked.
Make an appointment with a doctor not affiliated with the AL, drive her to it and make sure in advance that you will be given an opportunity to talk privately to the doctor.
Your mom will probably need to move soon. I'd call tomorrow to set up an appointment. If she hasn't been tested for a UTI, that's probably in order. Has she had blood work recently and do you have access to her information? When my mom started on the road to figuring out what's going on with her lack of short term memory, she had blood work looking at her B12 and thyroid levels, as these can cause dementia like symptoms if out of whack.
Her meds should be reviewed - some meds are known to be possible contributors to confusion. These can be stopped and replaced by something else.
Thank you for working so hard to make sure your mom's care is appropriate. Good luck.
My husband is fPoA because his father was married to my mother. He was fPoA for both of them and his father has since died. So now he is still fPoA over her and the elder attorney said it is in force. I am 2nd on fPoA but I don’t want to deal with her finances. I’m not familiar with it, but my husband has been helping her with it for over a decade because she wasn’t able to ever since she had her stroke.
Yes, we need to keep her near us. When she lived in the hoarding house she called nonstop expecting us to drive 14 hours to her to change a lightbulb, show her how to use the TV remote, etc. That’s why we moved her near us in the first place. We were losing our minds and going broke having to make the trip down to her for this stuff. Now she wants to go back and to a hoarding situation after we’ve already moved her twice? No way. She was also a target before when she was far away, with people looking to take advantage of her. Vultures were circling if you know what I mean. Another reason to have her near us where we can keep an eye on things. She was way overpaying people for things.
She will not go to a therapist. She’s one of those perfect people. Nothing wrong with her. Just ask. She’s a show timer. She’s been prescribed meds for anxiety and depression. She refuses to take them. She refuses the psych evals. What makes you think she’s going to agree to talk to a therapist? Hasn’t happened in 82 years and isn’t going to. I know you’re trying to help, but this is not an option.
There is also no calm, peaceful or productive in dealing with her. She is a toxic personality, always has been. Old age and dementia has only made it worse. I said we cannot get a meeting with the doctor to discuss anything, but your advice is to discuss with her doctor? Can you say catch-22?! I know hoarding is a mental illness. But it’s the least of my concerns right now since she’s away from that situation.
Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were trying to meet with the staff and medical staff that is part of the AL. When I suggested taking her to a doctor, I meant one NOT affiliated with the AL. The AL does not need to give you permission to take her to a doctor in the community.
The AL is being VERY unprofessional, IMHO. If she gets evaluated for cognition issues and found unfit, they might have to ask for her to be moved. As dementia progresses, AL will not be able to meet her needs.
Residents at Assisted Living have a right to come and go as they please. The staff has no right to force them to stay there if they want to leave. The resident can call a cab or get in their car, or in someone else's car, and take off if they sign out.
If you feel your mother has dementia, then you need to have her evaluated by a medical doctor who can give her the proper testing to determine her cognizance level. Just bc you have POA doesn't mean you get to say she requires a certain level of care at Assisted Living which they are likely not even equipped to provide her. That's Memory Care Assisted Living and another ballgame entirely which has locked outside doors preventing the resident fro m leaving. A medical diagnosis of one of the dementias or Alzheimer's is required to be accepted into Memory Care. I, as my mother's POA, can't simply say "I want" her in Memory Care; her doctor has to agree she qualifies to be in there or it's a no-go.
Frantic voice mails and irritating behavior in general does not constitute "dementia" on its own, not until there's a formal diagnosis in writing! And a truly demented individual cannot Showtime their way into passing a cognitive exam, either.
Again100 is right.....your mother needs a doctor not affiliated with the AL to administer a cognitive exam to your mother, and THEN give a dx and a recommendation for Memory Care. In all of the ALs I've dealt with, NO doctors work FOR them, but come into the facility independently to care for residents. None were equipped to give cognizance exams either.
When I had the situation you're in now, my mother went to the ER for the umpteenth time for vertigo. I knew she was suffering from dementia so I literally begged the ER doc to admit her for further testing AND to look for Alzheimer's and dementia due to her behavioral issues. She was living in AL at the time, but I knew it wasn't THEIR PROBLEM, IT WAS MINE to resolve. The doc admitted her, she failed the cognizance test with a score of 18, and I finally had an answer. She didn't need Memory Care for another 3 years, however, bc it's a last resort. Elders need to be pretty bad with at least moderate dementia before MC is warranted. That's a subject for another time, though.
I agree that the AL isn't handling this matter professionally and giving you a run around. But, now YOU have to swoop in and take mother in to a doctor or neurologist yourself to find out a diagnosis and go from there. POAs are pretty useless UNTIL the elder is IN Memory Care at which time WE get to make all the decisions for them. In AL, they get to make their own decisions and be part of all the discussions pertaining to them. That's how it's been for my folks and I (only child) since 2014 that they've been in Assisted Living and 2019 in Memory Care.
Good luck to you.
You can, it is just uncomfortable. She will be mad. It stinks, but it looks like that is what you need to do.
Also, if the facility isn’t seeing most of these behaviors and she isn’t hopping the next plane to fly the coop, you may just have to wait. And, if she is functioning fine at the AL, they are handling it. It may be that, for now, you just block her calls at certain times or whatever. She may seem frantic on the phone, but that isn’t showing up when she goes to meals, interacts with caregivers, etc. As someone else said, AL may be the proper level of care for where she is right now. The AL would be all over you if she was giving them grief.
However, if the dr at the facility is her primary dr, he should definitely be willing to do testing. He may be more comfortable arranging a neuropsych eval instead. Either way, he does have an obligation to hear this feedback.
But, as bad as it sounds, you do have to be willing to say these things in front of her. It will be really, really hard. No one wants to face their mom and share info like that because they don’t want to be the bad guy.
It does prove to them that you aren’t being shady.
And the dr is the only one who the voicemails as “proof” might matter to, not the admin.
Interact with her less and when you do stay calm. She is safe and cared for. Could she leave? Yes. But, she hasn’t and she hasn’t suggested she was planning to to her caregivers, so she may just be dumping on you to get you to do something she wants. We have all been there and it is no fun.
If she is spending away her life savings on a criminal, that would be a problem. Your DH has the POA for finances, which sounds durable, so he can do what he needs to do.
It sounds like you are coming to the place where it is good to take a step back. Look at each thing individually and realize that a lot of aging care involves things you can’t control. I say that gently and kindly. It is easy for us to see potential problems, but many are our own projections.
The calls and possibly the money are the “is”. The moving home or talking about money are the “maybe” problems. Not bad to see them, but you may not be able to fix them until she gets bad enough that the AL staff that take care of her everyday see a problem.
Or you have to be willing to address it in front of her. Adjusting expectations might help. It’s tough, no doubt. Best wishes.
Now I'll read the rest of the post.
So while your mom may be driving you up the wall, it doesn't mean that she doesn't have the right to hear what's being said about her.
The facility is not refusing the meeting. They are refusing to abrogate your mom's rights.
What are you afraid might happen if your mother heard you say "we think our mom has dementia"?
i don’t understand why you need to meet with the director. my mom is followed by a company called Bluestone . Nurse practitioner sees her at least monthly. That’s who gave my mom the test. The DR who oversees the NP was the second physician. Director not involved at all. Contact whomever is in charge of your moms care and get it done. Leave director out of it. If the person who oversees your moms care won’t step up, take your mom out for lunch, by way of another physician appointment. And yes get her checked for a UTI.
When you make the DR appointment be sure they know why your coming in, and that you what an appointment for the second dr following.
as a side note the director and the facility nurse do not have the credentials to deem someone incapacitated…
If they are uncooperative, look into what organization regulates AL facilities in your state and reach out to them. That is going nuclear, but they may have an ombudsman who could help you address the problems you are having getting the appointment with their dr and your mother together. She should be there. You can speak with him after the appointment, but you should play the voicemails in front of her. I imagine she is difficult.
Suggest eliminating her telephone so she can’t call you. Give her a pen or pens, paper or colored cards, envelopes and stamps and tell her that is the way to communicate. That will give you your sanity back as far as the phone is concerned. She does not need a phone in assisted living. She grew up in a time period where people sent each other letters. Don’t give too many stamps, because of the dementia. Better to pre-stamp the envelopes since she’ll have no clue to the value. I’d actually dole them out a couple at a time to her, so she can’t send them all at once like the phone calls.
My MIL is exactly like her. She had an odd trip leading to AL. She lived for about 8 months in her hoarder house with her yorkie (not house trained) after FIL passed. She would call police every other day for her delusions, since she lived 3 1/2 hours away. She then moved to a hotel for a couple of weeks and of course the delusions and calls to police followed. She then moved in with her sister and they did not get along. Nephew called DH to get her or he’d have the police remove her. She was taken to AL at that time. She initially accepted it, but then was furious at nephew and the world. DH cut off her credit cards, did not give her a phone- this is something you should consider doing - (removing her phone and giving her pen, paper, envelopes, stamps), because she would have spent all her money buying from QVC for things she didn’t need. Instead we receive epistles about how she is in prison, we stole her money, where she wanted and how she wanted to live, that she needed to leave AL because there were people trying to kill her and her little dog, and that God will punish DH for what he did by putting her in AL and that I am horrible for arranging it all. In truth, she gets medical care (addressing the delusions, lack of dentition, diabetes, poor sleeping habits, etc), regular meals, her room cleaned, encouragement to clean herself, assistance with her horrible little dog and companionship if she wants it. Better than what she had at her house. She couldn’t drive because she couldn’t see (cataracts) and would get lost. Her house was filthy, and the police notified DH that if he didn’t do something, she would be taken in for mental evaluation and lose her dog.
I don’t know what you did with her house but since your husband has financial power of attorney, I recommend clearing it out and selling it. It would eliminate a place to which she could potentially return that is unsafe if her brain were working and a drain on the finances. We did that as part of closing out DH’s fathers’ estate and because she thought it was haunted (not true) and it would have been a travesty after all that work to allow her to move in and cause problems again. The funds are paying for her care.
Your husband and you should work in concert. Since he has financial poa, he should be communicating with you at the same time to arrange for the doctor appointment. Your mother might respond better if he told her that the both of you will be there for the appointment, and schedule it in the morning at the assisted living facility first and if that doesn’t work outside. Say you are going to lunch afterwards. Have lunch at AL.
I am really surprised that the RN and Director did not explain from the first time you asked, that they are not qualified to determine if Mom has Dementia. Its also not their responsibility to see Mom gets to a Neurologist. I do think, from what you have said, that the staff caring for her is aware of changes.
Assisted Livings are residences. As such, the staff is limited in what duties they perform. Yes, they have transportation. But usually the resident sets up their own appts or a family member. A staff member, like a CNA, does not go with the resident if the resident uses the facility transportation. The driver of the van gets the person to the appt but just drops them off or takes them in to make sure they go to the right office. Once settled in they may leave or wait depends on their schedule coming back later to pick up.
If you find Mom has a Dementia, you may find she needs more than an AL can give in care. The next step would be Memory care or LTC depending on how much money Mom has.
If she goes to the ER again, play the recordings for them however, be aware that if she doesn't act out in front of the staff they will have no choice but to release her back to the AL (if they will accept her) if she doesn 't agree to be seen by specialists such as a neurologist.
She definitely seems to need a care level higher that what an AL can offer and if she is trying to leave it will need to be a secured MC. I'm not sure what ploy you can use to get her to see the new doctors but folks here are a wealth of information of "manuver" modes.
Good luck on this road.
2. CT scans are inconclusive. A neuro exam involves multiple tests. I paid $1,800 for one.
3. Why do you need a diagnosis?
4. Give yourself a break-don't talk with Mom for a week.
5. The AL people all think family is just looking for money.
why do you need a diagnosis? Will it change anything? I am thinking a change in diagnosis comes a change in care which then comes a change in placement.
does the facility have a memory care or dementia unit? Could be why they won’t have her diagnosed…she would have to be moved which means less income.
if her care is good what will having a diagnosis do? Why change it if the care is good?
The people at the AL refuse to talk you about anything because they're hiding something. There was an incident or incidents of some kind involving your mother that they don't want to get in trouble for.
This is what AL and NH and MC administrators are trained to do. Run people in circles until they have their a$$ses fully covered. Visit the probate court right away and make the petition for conservatorship. Bring the voicemails from your mother when you go for the court hearing. No amount of "showtiming" can refute proof like that. I would be very surprised if you were not granted conservatorship over your mother.
Also, your friend is mistaken about a doctor giving her POA.
Power of Attorney is a legal and official position granting a person or persons power to legally take action and make decisions as if they WERE the person they have it for.
A doctor can make it so that if his patient has no legal POA then their next of kin (closest relative) will decide whether or not heroic measures or life support will be added or continued in the event that the patient is so incapacitated that they cannot decide themselves.
That is all that is. It is not POA to make health care decisions for a person like what rehab they will go to, or nursing home placement, or whose custody they will be released to. It is not POA over their financial affairs either.