Compensation from wife's assets for her care. Is it right to do?

jfaison698: " think it would be fair to ask her daughter for compensation if for nothing else but to keep me from feeling like an unpaid maid/housekeeper/caregiver."

Rollergirl228:"Of course I’m doing this out of love and love shouldn’t ask for compensation."

The two quotes above are the two points from each side of the issue that stand out to me and relate to my (admittedly, much less time-consuming, and she didn't live with me or I with her!) experience of caregiving.

It is often assumed by society that someone (usually but not always a daughter) should lovingly and willingly provide any amount of care to a parent and never get a thing in return.

And yet, this constant 24/7/365 caregiving can break a caregiver -- physically, mentally, emotionally. (And occasional short respite breaks don't count in my mind for making it bearable.)

In my case it was the emotional aspect that made me so angry and bitter. While my 3 brothers were out-of-state and couldn't reasonably be expected to be on-site, my mother treated me quite badly often. I was told my time wasn't worth anything, that I was a nasty person, etc. When I suggested one of my brothers do something that they could do over the Internet to satisfy one of her obsessions instead of me, I was treated to the shaking/shaming/blaming/crying routine -- how dare I suggest that someone else do it? My brothers' time was valuable!

And when I asked for compensation, I was told that, "family doesn't pay family." Well, it got to the point where she was not making sense (after she'd become hospitalized) and when I brought up to one of my POA brothers that I needed to be compensated since I was now spending all day in the hospital, he willingly agreed. And when he offered to also backpay for the two years prior (when she gave up driving and that's when the demands really started), I jumped at it. From that point forward, I was paid $20/hour (and paid for the two years prior). My brothers knew from my e-mails what was involved in doing most of anything with my mother. A lot of my resentment faded away, and I treated my "Dummy Daughter" status as just a job.

(Now I am wondering what will happen in the future to family caregivers, because now more and more elders will balk at going to facilities. It was bad enough that the stigma of the awful nursing homes years ago. And now society will have the "you go to nursing homes to die of covid!" stance. Probably a subject for another thread.)

FOLLOWING -- I am the daughter of a hospice cancer patient (my mom). I'm wondering about compensation for myself as well. I'm providing 24/7 care, gave up a job that I can easily get back, and am taking away from my kids and myself (which I have been GLADLY doing at one point because I love her and because I wanted to care for her and give her the best care and spend the with her, but it is tough! It is demanding. It takes away from so much. So, I am curious to hear MANY opinions and others sides. I'm sure it depends on many variables too.....

If you are using a loved one's SSA or SSI income, I think there are some glitches. Does anyone know the actual details for this situation?

Your wife's money should really be contributing toward the upkeep of your home, where you live together. She used to be able to help keep up the house. She used to be able to help buy groceries and cook. She used to be able to help do laundry. She used to be able to do whatever division of labor the both of you agreed upon when you got married and she moved into your house. Now, she can't do those things anymore. It seems only fair to me that 50% of the cost of hiring help should be borne by your wife.

You have your own health issues, which will only get worse if you continue to try to be everything for your wife.

I do not believe that you need to ask your wife's daughter for permission to hire help. I would inform her that you've decided to hire help, the weekly cost of that help is $X and your wife's 50% of $X totals $Y. Your wife's money belongs to your wife, not to her daughter.

I don’t have a direct answer for you but I do have a few thoughts. I’ve been on the fence about this because I struggle as the live-in caregiver for both (yes, both!) of my parents who are in their late 80s. Dad has dementia and although mom is somewhat still sharp she’s got medical issues and is frail. I’ve been bitter because I feel my sister who lives only a few miles away could be doing so much more to help. At one time I even thought about asking my mom to change the trust/will so that I could get compensated for all of this help I’m providing. After researching I began to ask myself if I would be doing this if there were nothing to be gained. If my parents were dirt poor and didn’t have anything to leave my sister and me. Of course I’m doing this out of love and love shouldn’t ask for compensation. Now, that doesn’t mean that I don’t deserve a much needed break from caregiving on a regular schedule that works for my mental health. In my case I have no problem asking for one weekend off a month and have a professional caregiver come in who is paid for by my parents. You could ask your wife’s daughter to use funds to cover care while you get away or even stay home and just attend to your own needs without having to worry about your wife. Finally, what if the roles were reversed? Would you want your daughter to pay your wife to care for you? Would that make sense to you? If it does then you will have your answer. Good luck.

JFaison, I think what is needed here (in addition to CountryMouse's amazingly complete list) is regular time off for you. Regular caregiver hours need to be scheduled and paid for out of your wife's income.

If you are going to be the main caregiver to your wife, also schedule a cleaning person and perhaps laundry help.

Contact a reputable agency and find out about minimums and rates.

You will feel like less of a drudge if you can get out for lunch with friends, some regular exercise and time to read. And if you don't have to constantly think about piles of laundry and vacuuming.

If the caregiving daughter is not independently wealthy she needs to receive compensation. "Time is money". Suggest you check current prices for local caregivers; then set a reasonable pay rate for the number of hours devoted to direct caregiving, plus the hours required for attendant services, such as shopping and dealing with legal matters, etc. Family love does not pay for monetary expenses.

Dear jf,
You do seem to be stuck somewhere. You say that you “are all close” but I sense that may just be on the surface. If you and your wife had separate finances how did you come to control hers? Did she give you PoA? And if she did instead of to her daughter maybe she had a good reason. Did her daughter ask you for control of her mother’s assets?

Why would you feel like an unpaid “maid/housekeeper/caregiver”? She is your wife, your goddess, your life. Those feelings seem a bit unnatural to me. I do understand that while she is still in your house and under your care she should contribute what she was before she got sick. If, on the other hand, you were paying all the living expenses for both of you, I’m not quite sure why you feel you need financial help now. Were you using her assets and yours to pay house bills? Way too many ifs here. Why does her daughter suddenly want control of her mothers assets.

If you feel “used” believe me it is so so common among family caregivers you are not alone. The job you have taken on is going to be very hard and impossible for you to do alone without becoming a little resentful of either or both your wife and her daughter.

Reread “gdaughter” answer and then read it again. She nailed it. You definitely need to talk to an Atty. Worst case scenario her daughter will live on her moms income (pension and SS) and leave you with all the expense of caring for her mother. It is doubtful someone with Alz will be able to stay at home til the end and she’ll need that income to pay for nursing.

Please think this out and get professional (her doctor and Atty) advise. And don’t look at it as compensation, these are her expenses.
love and light
Sabrina

Jfaison, I think that you need to tell your stepdaughter that her mom needs her income to pay for her life and all that entails. She is actually committing a crime if she is taking her mom's social security and using for herself.

Financial exploitation of a vulnerable senior is all to common.

As her husband it os your responsibility to ensure that she is not being cheated by anyone.

When money becomes involved it can ruin the best of relationships. So I hope that isn't true in this case, but you should be aware that it very well could.

When spouse's decide to keep finances separate they each need to contribute half of the living expenses and 100% of anything specifically for themselves. That is what keeping things separate means. Not you paying for everything and her daughter getting all her money.

Some caregivers are unpaid and some garner a wage from their LO.
To each their own discretion.

Think about it as if both children belonged to both you and your wife. Would you be compensated to take care of their mother? Probably not. However, if you need help to keep her in the home, ask for the help. I'm sure her daughter understands the workload you have assumed with the effort of keeping wife in the home and it is an honorable decision. Ask daughter to help you find someone to ease the load.

I would not look to get paid but all expenses should be borne by the daughter who controls the assets. However, when I reflected on this issue, there are factors that I am not aware of so do what you think is
right.

Seems to me that compensating you for your time may be OK, if caregiving is keeping you from gainful and needed employment. Then, you need to consider what portion of your day/week is caregiving and what is jest being a loving spouse.

Otherwise, it might be better to get money to cover needed items to care for your spouse: her usual supplies; coverage, gas, and maintenance for the vehicle; a portion to cover her part of the home (utilities, mortgage, taxes)l and a subsistence portion (her food, medications, and sundries). Be very specific in how this is not to meet your needs, which should be covered by your own finances.

You two seem to have set the path clearly from the start, which is a good thing. It's very hard when you love someone to then feel the conflict of wanting to do good and be there while feeling like a servant on call 24/7. I'm a daughter living with elder parents who have provided for me, so to me, this is payback...but today I am having a moment of feeling it is just too much. Literally on call with mom who has dementia and refers to me as "creep" or "jerk" of late (not to worry, Dad is not spared either but is deaf so doesn't know it LOL). So back to you, I would make clear you can't do it all, all the time. There is such a thing as a caregiver agreement. Prior to sharing your decision you might want to investigate that topic with a certified elder law attorney...and my preference if you are lucky enough to find one, is one who works by the task, not the hour. The going rate for the cheapest help is pretty much $20/hr on average.
The alternative of course is that wife is elsewhere, where the costs will be astronomical. You might also want to consider some in-home help so you can get out and have some time to yourself. Be careful to have your affairs handled legally...my uncle married in his 60's to a wealthy creature; he lived out of town. He kept his assets separate and paid her toward the expenses. When he passed away he had left everything to my mother and his nieces. My mother was so generous and foolish she let the spouse continue to use the furniture. There was a fire. Spouse collected an insurance settlement but the distance and hassles meant my mother never got what she deserved.
So the way I see it is the daughter takes mom back and caregives at her house, or invests more time for you so you have some free time, but in addition you get some sort of compensation...

Maybe you could arrange for some of your wife's money to go toward household expenses that would be useful to both you and your wife. That would not be paying you directly for your caretaking, but it would offset some of the expenses that you would otherwise be paying for by yourself..

Dear unpaid maid/housekeeper/caregiver. I want you to know that I and many others admire you for wanting to keep your wife at home as long as you are able to take care of her.

First, fairness has nothing to do with you wanting to take care of your wife. And in life, we all know, very few things are "fair." In marriage one or the other gives more to the relationship than the other at any given time. One time, one spouse gives more; the next time, the other spouse may give more; marriage is a give and take, you know that already. So, let's take "fair" out of the equation.

Second, the issue here then becomes your feelings of being an unpaid provider. It is your choice to feel like an unpaid provider. Thousands upon thousands of spouses are caring for their beloved alzheimers/dementia/end-of-life patients, and rarely do they have the opportunity, wherewithal, financial resources, or even time to seek payment for the care they give. Everyone I know who takes on the responsibility for an ailing spouse does so because of love, finances, or obligation.

If you love your wife, do it for the love you had with her and for her. If you want to be paid then ask your step-daughter for money in a positive way because you need the money.

If you do not need the money, and are unwilling to take care of your wife because of the love you shared for 16 years, then put her in a care facility and visit her as often as you need to or would like to.

May you find some peace in this relationship with your wife and step-daughter.

It is a very good thing that you are all four of you starting out on good terms. It's a positive atmosphere, and should help discussions.

Now then. Discussing your wife's assets is one half of her financial affairs, and it has already been agreed that control is best placed in her daughter's hands. That her daughter pays her mother rent for use of her mother's property is also a good start: it shows a proper understanding of the principle that her mother's assets remain her mother's assets.

So the assets are one side of the coin. The other side of the same coin is her outgoings - her living costs.

As time goes on, the cost of personal care and related services will increase. You are currently providing all of those free of charge. But not only does this lead to the unpaid maid/housekeeper/caregiver feeling, which you are already finding a bit much, in time it will also be beyond the scope of even the most self-sacrificing and devoted husband. You just won't be able to do it all, and your wife will need *and will have to pay for* additional services.

So the topic heading is: "caregiving support costs now and looking ahead." As the person in control of her mother's finances, your stepdaughter will need to consider this subject in any case; only at the moment, as it just so happens, it hasn't come up because you've been handling it. Does that feel like a more comfortable conversation to have with her?

You might like to jot down a list of subheadings, too, and perhaps to gather some information. Personal care and housekeeping services, what do they cost and who might be acceptable providers? Respite care. Equipment and supplies. Thinking about a couple in your situation - I'll be visiting them in just over two hours - they currently have:

a profiling hospital bed
a wheeled commode
a walking frame
a portable wheelchair for car journeys
a reliable supplier of continence care products, currently pads with mesh underwear, approx five per day.
1 x 45 minute a.m. call daily to support with personal care, pressure area checks, cream application, dressing, and transfers from bed to living room. We also monitor and document her function on that given day - can she converse, do up her buttons, step round to transfer from bed to wheeled commode, clean her teeth, wash herself? - this provides a record of her fluctuating abilities which helps keep track of where she is mentally.

In normal circumstances they go together to a local community group, to the supermarket, and to other suitable venues - at the moment these are off limits, of course, but they have their own modest costs, too.

In my view they could do with adding:
a riser recliner armchair
a downstairs shower/wet room
an additional bed time call daily (especially as her husband has told us that her abilities decline towards the end of each day)
two or more calls per week for haircare, chiropody etc.

In due course they will need:
a Hoyer lift and slings
a variable pressure air bed
a slide sheet

The husband has been the primary caregiver for seven years, and is nowadays realistic about what he can cope with. He has had very occasional respite breaks, when his wife stays in a facility, and he's considering how to introduce regular respite hours into the weekly schedule. He had to get over the guilt, but for Heaven's sake! He is on duty, taking responsibility, 24/7 and he does everything, he never leaves. EVERYBODY needs down time - or they break.

Not only that. You say your wife is approaching being bedridden. That can be delayed, and her quality of life maintained, for a good deal longer with the right support. It is in her interests especially to start the conversation - and I'd expect it to go well :) Good luck, let us know how you get on.

PS Don't forget additional laundry bills!

Uhmmmm....
Hold on a minute.
You gave control of your wife's assets AND income/banking to her adult daughter?

You said: " I have agreed to give her daughter control of her mother's assets including banking." Agreed under duress?

Why would you do that (if you did), when you know that your wife's income should be used for her care? For her needs, for caregivers, and now you must go begging for your own wife's income and explain what you want to use it for?

It does not matter that you both were married before. You have been married long enough to have an interest in community property and income. Do you have a pre-nuptial agreement?

Are you independently wealthy? Because if you have a ton of money, you can run through that in no time caring for your wife.

Your wife's daughter suggested this? Does she have plans to move her Mom into her home to care for her? That will in reality be a divorce, imo. Giving one person that much control, housing, and money leaves you the only one willing to give away money to keep peace and harmony 'in the family'. Does your own daughter know about this? I have concerns that you are being exploited by the daughter who is already living in your wife's home, paying minimal rent....for how long, I wonder, and is she now paying that rent to herself?

See an elder care attorney about this.

Red flags, I am seeing red flags.

A sensitive subject for me, after seeing a similar scenario ending in divorce after all the siblings drained the couple's assets. Your situation could be different. BTW, the wife was awarded support.

Sorry if I am over-reacting.

I feel the same as you. Everything we have will go to our respective offspring. We get nothing from each other, but we have given up the life we used to have and the only one I have now is caring for him. It feels selfish, but one also feels as though he (SHE) is being abused when you get no help from the families who are, after all, going to be the benefactors when it is all over. I won't even have my home as it will go to the kids. My husband's family accused me of attacking them when I said I needed help!
As a side comment....we live alone...just the two of us and I have no one to talk with, I can't go anywhere or do anything except care for him 24/7. Some people here do not understand how hard 24/7 is!

I think that a spouse does things out of love. Perhaps it is time to tell the daughter that your wife needs to go to a facility.

I find it very odd that you think that you should be paid from her assets and point out the living arrangements. She allowed her daughter to rent her house and you both decided to live in your house. I assume that her pension is being used to help cover expenses. If not that should change, but getting paid to care for your wife. Hmmmm?

Ask yourself how you would feel if the situation were reversed. What if YOU were the one with advanced Alzheimer's and your wife asked your daughter to pay her for your care?

That said, I understand your frustrations - I've been caring for my Mother for over 6 years. I admire you for seeking others advice/opinions before making a decision. Bless you.

I don't think that you should ask for payment for caregiving. However, I do think that it is ok to ask for a contribution for outside caregivers or if your wife was contributing to the household prior to having alzheimers and her daughter is no longer providing funds and you now have to pay all of the bills. If this is the case it is not ok for her daughter to squirrel away all of her mother's money that will become the daughter's money upon her mother's death. It is also ok for her daughter to contribute her mother's assets even if she was not contributing to the household pre alzheimers, because her mother's needs have changed. If you decide to ask her daughter to contribute I don't think it is a good idea to pose it as payment for you to care for your wife. I hope that everything works out for all of you.

I don’t think the daughter is obligated to pay for being a spouse. I may be in the minority here but....that’s what you appear to be asking for. It would be reasonable for your wife’s assets to be used to pay for her care, but not to pay her spouse for being a spouse. It would be reasonable to ask her daughter to use the money to hire caregivers so you don’t burn yourself and die before your wife does. I believe something like 30% of caregivers die before the person they are taking care of. I hate to say it but the time to think about compensation was when the wills were written & when decided to cut each other out, it shouldn’t have been decided on without giving it a long hard thought. Too late but you both should have thought about leaving something to each other....

You can certainly ask her daughter about being given some of your wife’s assets and I think you should. But I think you really need to think through how to say it. Don’t make it sound like you want compensation for being a spouse because she may not take too kindly to that.

If your wife has Alzheimers, it would seem that she can no longer make a decision re paying you for caring for her.  At a minimum, I would consult an elder care attorney in your state as to whether this could be done legally.   Most spouses do not get paid for caregiving.