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The answer is YES if someone is their PoA (for each of them) and you are not.
If your parents do not have medical diagnoses of cognitive and/or memory impariment, then even if they have an assigned PoA, the authority may not be in force. In this case, your parents get to make their own decisions to move. They each have to have "capacity" to make decisions in their own best interests. They are not a "team". They are individuals. Therefore, if one of them has capacity and the other doesn't, then one may move but probably not the other.
BUT if the PoA (for each of them) is durable, it may already be in force without any diagnosis (this is the type of PoA my Mother has authorized for me). It is in force the minute she signed the paperwork. No diagnosis is required to activate my authority.
Some things to ponder very seriously:
You, as 1 person, will surely be overwhelmed by the care of 2 needy people. You will be overwhelmed physically, mentally, emotionally and maybe even financially. Think very deeply about this plan. Read other posts on this forum by loving, well-meaning people who made this decision without really researching its feasibility and long-term impact.
If you have your own family: spouse or children... these are your priorities, not your parents. They wil also be impacted by sharing their home with 2 needy people. Please remember that your parents' decline is progressive. It won't stay at the level it currently is at. They will eventually need help with every little thing. If they have or get dementia, they can perpetrate some very disturbing behaviors that you won't be able to control or avoid.
What is the reason you wish to do this in secret? How is it that your parents don't know who is their PoA (if they even assigned one)? You can ask your brother (or other siblings) but please note they are not legally obligated to prove it. You'd need to use a lawyer to summon them before a judge to produce the paperwork.
If you believe your parents are being neglected please report them to APS first. At least they will be on their radar for needing immediate help.
If you don't get along with your brother or other siblings on this issue, please consider a family mediator through the courts to help moderate a calm, reasoned discussion about your parents' care arrangement.
Don't set off a family bomb if you don't want all sorts of collateral, permanent damage.
Thank you for all this advice....this is what I needed to hear (ponder right now). My parents won't show me the paperwork (say they can't locate it) and my sibling won't tell me if he is PoA(conversations end in yelling). This is not the ideal situation but I am watching 2 people who refuse to leave their home struggle with caring for themselves anymore. They will only leave if they can live with family. I am the only one to offer and I am several states away. My other siblings live close to them and do not visit my parents. I have been flying to care for them every month. I am afraid that my siblings will say that I am forcing them to leave their home.
Why don’t you ask your parents if any of your siblings have POA for them? I wouldn’t do anything drastic without knowing any facts about their situation.
You can't move people over state lines without knowing the laws governing such moves. Are your parents legally competent to make the decision to move (not just your asking mom over coffee one morning, "Do you want to move in with me?" and she says, "Uh-huh," but maybe she didn't hear you. Do they even know you are planning it? Where they'd be going? Away from their friends? Church? Clubs? Pets?
Will their insurance cover them in a different state? How about Medicaid? Will you set up all their new doctors and take them to appointments, which can be several per week? Is your house equipped with what they'll need - doors wide enough for wheelchairs, for instance, and shower bars so they won't fall? Do they need ramps?
Who will actually care for them? You? Do you know how? It's not something that just happens out of love. It's a complete about-face from your present way of life. And don't expect them to be happy in your house.
"But we just love each other so much!" Until you're changing their diapers and dancing to their demands 24/7, maybe.
Please think this over more carefully. At-home care of parents isn't for sissies, and once they're in your home, it's difficult to get rid of them even when your back is breaking, they're crying in the middle of the night, and dad's wandering out of the house while you're sleeping. Find out who is supposed to be in charge of them. If it isn't you, step back.
Thank you for all this information. You gave me some great questions to think about as far as insurance and other needs. My family and I are prepared to care for them. Unfortunately, I have had prior experiences helping other family members in similar situations. The difference is not being the POA and moving out of state with my siblings disagreeing with this situation. Siblings not willing to help out and parents not willing to move.
You need to BE sure. Your parent can move wherever they choose to move as long as they are competent. If they are no longer competent to make their own decisions, and have appointed a POA, then the POA is responsible for any and all decisions about placement. That means that you will need to find out who the POA is if your parent is no longer competent.
More information would be helpful. Is your parent currently living at home and no longer safe? Is your parent currently in care and you feel the care is not safe or adequate? Are you cooperative with your brother and able to discuss with him whether or not he has POA?
Your profile says “I am caring for Chris who is 53 years old living in my home with age related decline and alzheimers/ dementia”. If this is accurate, you already have your hands full caring for Chris. If this is not accurate, none of it hangs together and you need to do a fair bit more checking.
Thank you for your help!!!! I am new to this forum and very stressed over decisions that need to be made and unsure how to handle things. I have corrected my profile. I am actually trying to help out 2 parents (ages 91 and 93).
I am slightly confused. Are these YOUR parents or In-Law's? The person that is POA for Health, for Finances is usually the one that will determine the "best, safest" place for the person they are POA for. If the POA has no objections and if caring for them in your house is safe there should be no problem. I would STRONGLY advise you to have a Caregiver Contract drawn up. You should be paid for your services as a Caregiver. You should be paid for any expenses above and beyond what you normally have in your household. the people you are caring for should also "contribute" a fair share to normal household expenses. In the contract you should spell out at what point you will no longer be able to manage care. Also be able to discuss placing them in Memory Care if it gets to the point where YOU are not safe caring for them or THEY are not safe. Caring for someone with dementia is NOT easy. Caring for TWO people with dementia will not be just double work it will be more like quadruple the work.
Since this will be an out of State move consider that they will have to change doctors. Will their coverage be better or worse where then will be moving to? do they have friends and other support system that they will be leaving?
If this is the case, and you're not PoA for one or both of them, then you need to stop what you're doing.
At their ages (early 90s) they may agree to the *idea* of moving (one day but maybe not another) but once you start changing their daily routine and upending their apple cart, they may give you all sorts of resistance once reality sets in and they can't handle it.
Please just report them to APS for their county and work through social services to get them the help they need. It would be unfair to assume your immediate family into a stressful and all-consuming caregiving role. Your parents have other options.
Thank you....as you can see I am really struggling with this situation that has been going on for months. We are finally at the point where my parents are agreeing to move in with me after realizing no one else is willing to help in the family. I found this forum so far people have been giving me a lot to think about which has been a huge help. I appreciate any feedback as this is overwhelming and not sure how to handle out of state move.
Dear Chris, moving parents aged 91 and 93 in with you is a massive undertaking that will only end with the death of both of them – and it could take years, with other care placements on the way. Even if they were more willing, I doubt if anyone who posts here regularly would think that this is a good idea. Moving them in, then finding it doesn’t work, then finding a Plan B, is very very disruptive and heaps of work for all concerned. Talk to the other family members, and try for Plan B now.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am very concerned about moving them and feel as though it could be detrimental to them both. I really don't know what to do and have been struggling with this decision. I appreciate and respect the feedback from others who have more experience with these situations. I just don't have much support from anyone willing to give thoughtful, practical advice...thanks!
If either one or both of your parents have any memory related health conditions or are diagnosed with dementia - even if they still have capacity and the POA isn't invoked - this is likely a very bad idea.
And maybe not for the reasons you think.
My FIL had dementia. BUT it was completely exacerbated by the cyclical home>hospital>rehab> home game that we played for far too long. That culminated in a final move to a SNF because we didn't have the ability to keep him at home any longer.
The nurse navigator AND the psychiatrist who did their rotation at the facility pulled no punches with us and advised that all of those moves greatly impacted FIL's cognitive functioning - just solely based on the moves alone.
That each and every time he was moved - his mind wasn't rebounding and wasn't adjusting. These cycles took place over several years. And the last cycle over the course of a year. They said every time he moved he took a step backwards cognitively.
You are considering moving TWO people - who could be impacted cognitively by just the move. Who could get moved into your home and change their minds dramatically.
It could cause pure upheaval in all of your lives, including theirs.
Maybe a better approach would be to offer support to the POA?
You are concerned it will be detrimental to both. For good reason.
Thank you for your response. I have always felt moving them out of their home would cause a mental decline as well as other health issues. One parent has dementia and I expect a cognitive decline but you made me think more about this issue with the other parent as well. Thank you sharing your experiences.
I don't think moving your parents is a good idea. They are not going to adjust and you will be creating a lot of difficulties for yourself. Remember, you matter too.
I have 95 year old parents who really thought they could finish out their days in their own home. They could not. I was not about to bring them 3,000 miles away to live near me.
Given their advanced age, I did not have any problem whatsoever placing them in a NH. It was for the best for them and every other family member. Up until this point, my parents' lives were good ones. They had healthy lives, did not want for anything, they traveled, they did not have to deal with their aging parents. Going to a NH is a small trade off for a long, good life in my humble opinion.
It was necessary for all involved that we did this.
You should start considering options other than yourself.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
If your parents do not have medical diagnoses of cognitive and/or memory impariment, then even if they have an assigned PoA, the authority may not be in force. In this case, your parents get to make their own decisions to move. They each have to have "capacity" to make decisions in their own best interests. They are not a "team". They are individuals. Therefore, if one of them has capacity and the other doesn't, then one may move but probably not the other.
BUT if the PoA (for each of them) is durable, it may already be in force without any diagnosis (this is the type of PoA my Mother has authorized for me). It is in force the minute she signed the paperwork. No diagnosis is required to activate my authority.
Some things to ponder very seriously:
You, as 1 person, will surely be overwhelmed by the care of 2 needy people. You will be overwhelmed physically, mentally, emotionally and maybe even financially. Think very deeply about this plan. Read other posts on this forum by loving, well-meaning people who made this decision without really researching its feasibility and long-term impact.
If you have your own family: spouse or children... these are your priorities, not your parents. They wil also be impacted by sharing their home with 2 needy people. Please remember that your parents' decline is progressive. It won't stay at the level it currently is at. They will eventually need help with every little thing. If they have or get dementia, they can perpetrate some very disturbing behaviors that you won't be able to control or avoid.
What is the reason you wish to do this in secret? How is it that your parents don't know who is their PoA (if they even assigned one)? You can ask your brother (or other siblings) but please note they are not legally obligated to prove it. You'd need to use a lawyer to summon them before a judge to produce the paperwork.
If you believe your parents are being neglected please report them to APS first. At least they will be on their radar for needing immediate help.
If you don't get along with your brother or other siblings on this issue, please consider a family mediator through the courts to help moderate a calm, reasoned discussion about your parents' care arrangement.
Don't set off a family bomb if you don't want all sorts of collateral, permanent damage.
You can't move people over state lines without knowing the laws governing such moves. Are your parents legally competent to make the decision to move (not just your asking mom over coffee one morning, "Do you want to move in with me?" and she says, "Uh-huh," but maybe she didn't hear you. Do they even know you are planning it? Where they'd be going? Away from their friends? Church? Clubs? Pets?
Will their insurance cover them in a different state? How about Medicaid? Will you set up all their new doctors and take them to appointments, which can be several per week? Is your house equipped with what they'll need - doors wide enough for wheelchairs, for instance, and shower bars so they won't fall? Do they need ramps?
Who will actually care for them? You? Do you know how? It's not something that just happens out of love. It's a complete about-face from your present way of life. And don't expect them to be happy in your house.
"But we just love each other so much!" Until you're changing their diapers and dancing to their demands 24/7, maybe.
Please think this over more carefully. At-home care of parents isn't for sissies, and once they're in your home, it's difficult to get rid of them even when your back is breaking, they're crying in the middle of the night, and dad's wandering out of the house while you're sleeping. Find out who is supposed to be in charge of them. If it isn't you, step back.
I wish you and your parents the best.
Thank you for all this information. You gave me some great questions to think about as far as insurance and other needs. My family and I are prepared to care for them. Unfortunately, I have had prior experiences helping other family members in similar situations. The difference is not being the POA and moving out of state with my siblings disagreeing with this situation. Siblings not willing to help out and parents not willing to move.
Your parent can move wherever they choose to move as long as they are competent.
If they are no longer competent to make their own decisions, and have appointed a POA, then the POA is responsible for any and all decisions about placement.
That means that you will need to find out who the POA is if your parent is no longer competent.
More information would be helpful.
Is your parent currently living at home and no longer safe?
Is your parent currently in care and you feel the care is not safe or adequate?
Are you cooperative with your brother and able to discuss with him whether or not he has POA?
Thank you for your help!!!! I am new to this forum and very stressed over decisions that need to be made and unsure how to handle things. I have corrected my profile. I am actually trying to help out 2 parents (ages 91 and 93).
Are these YOUR parents or In-Law's?
The person that is POA for Health, for Finances is usually the one that will determine the "best, safest" place for the person they are POA for.
If the POA has no objections and if caring for them in your house is safe there should be no problem.
I would STRONGLY advise you to have a Caregiver Contract drawn up.
You should be paid for your services as a Caregiver. You should be paid for any expenses above and beyond what you normally have in your household. the people you are caring for should also "contribute" a fair share to normal household expenses.
In the contract you should spell out at what point you will no longer be able to manage care. Also be able to discuss placing them in Memory Care if it gets to the point where YOU are not safe caring for them or THEY are not safe.
Caring for someone with dementia is NOT easy. Caring for TWO people with dementia will not be just double work it will be more like quadruple the work.
Since this will be an out of State move consider that they will have to change doctors. Will their coverage be better or worse where then will be moving to? do they have friends and other support system that they will be leaving?
"... parents not willing to move."
If this is the case, and you're not PoA for one or both of them, then you need to stop what you're doing.
At their ages (early 90s) they may agree to the *idea* of moving (one day but maybe not another) but once you start changing their daily routine and upending their apple cart, they may give you all sorts of resistance once reality sets in and they can't handle it.
Please just report them to APS for their county and work through social services to get them the help they need. It would be unfair to assume your immediate family into a stressful and all-consuming caregiving role. Your parents have other options.
And maybe not for the reasons you think.
My FIL had dementia. BUT it was completely exacerbated by the cyclical home>hospital>rehab> home game that we played for far too long. That culminated in a final move to a SNF because we didn't have the ability to keep him at home any longer.
The nurse navigator AND the psychiatrist who did their rotation at the facility pulled no punches with us and advised that all of those moves greatly impacted FIL's cognitive functioning - just solely based on the moves alone.
That each and every time he was moved - his mind wasn't rebounding and wasn't adjusting. These cycles took place over several years. And the last cycle over the course of a year. They said every time he moved he took a step backwards cognitively.
You are considering moving TWO people - who could be impacted cognitively by just the move. Who could get moved into your home and change their minds dramatically.
It could cause pure upheaval in all of your lives, including theirs.
Maybe a better approach would be to offer support to the POA?
You are concerned it will be detrimental to both. For good reason.
I have 95 year old parents who really thought they could finish out their days in their own home. They could not. I was not about to bring them 3,000 miles away to live near me.
Given their advanced age, I did not have any problem whatsoever placing them in a NH. It was for the best for them and every other family member. Up until this point, my parents' lives were good ones. They had healthy lives, did not want for anything, they traveled, they did not have to deal with their aging parents. Going to a NH is a small trade off for a long, good life in my humble opinion.
It was necessary for all involved that we did this.
You should start considering options other than yourself.