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I took over her bills about 2 years ago after bills not being paid and things gettings turned off. I got a POA and had her bills sent to my home. I am on the checking account and pay her bills thru the bank. She is going out almost everyday and shopping and buying stuff she doesn't need. I can follow her by her debit card. She spends well over her income and the savings has rapidly gone down. She couldn't even pay property taxes with out using the credit card. I gave her a budget and she just went to the bank and got more money out of saving, or charged it on a credit card. I took away her debit card and checks and credit card and gave her cash to use for a month. She went to the bank and got more checks and ordered a new debit card. I don't know what to do, she is almost broke. I need help!

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Rosetree, if a person is a big time spender, it is almost impossible to change their spending habits.

Have the bank create a two signature procedure, thus if your Mom goes to the bank to get more cash, she would also need your signature to do that. Lower the limits on the debit and credit card.
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Rosetree002 Jan 2020
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Does she have dementia? That seems like one explanation or is this how it's always been?
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Rosetree002 Jan 2020
Yes, she does have dementia and has been seeing a neurologist. I know she doesn't think she is spending that much and I try to mail her her bank statement once a week with a spending log. She doesn't get on the computer any more and doesn't keep up her check book. She mostly uses a debit card or credit card. I put a limit on her debit card and when it was at 0 it would be declined. I thought $300 ofr 2 weeks was enough for spending money,with all bills paid. When she got to 0 she went to the bank and got another $100. That took only 4 day to spend and now she at 0 again with 5 days till another payday. She spent $400 in 10 days. I told her get your receipts and take some thing back. I would,t say spending isn't a new thing but too this extent it is.I just don't know where to turn and should I get her sisters involved with it. Maybe therapy? I'm searching for help!
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Your profile says Mom has a Dementia. Telling her what she shouldn't do is falling in deaf ears. She no longer can reason and short term memory means she can't remember. You r going to need to make decisions. Mom will not be able to live alone at some point. It will not be what she wants, it will be what she needs to be kept safe.
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Rosetree002 Jan 2020
Thank you for your reply. I know she can't reason and I do pay her bills , and manage the bank account. I was told that she needs her own money to spend and feel like she is in control of some things, Not working . I gave her money in the account to spend after her bills were paid.
She went thru it in a week and then went to the bank and got more and went thru it in 4 days. Now she is broke and has 4-5 day till a payday. She called to ask if I knew where her checks were, I said you don't have any money so take something back that you bought last week. I send her her bank statement and weekly spending log every week. I know she will have to move here at some point but won't even talk about it now. I'm going to start looking for some one to come in and help her with things. I just don't know where to turn or who to get involved.
Thanks
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Frustrating. I wonder if she can understand her bank statement and weekly spending log. Even if she does understand, probably not with dementia, she apparently does not care about that.

There must be some way(s) to keep her from doing this. She must be a beginning stages if she is getting to the bank and getting more money to blow.
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How is she getting to the bank? Sounds like she's still driving. My Mom went through this and I was left to "take care" of the aftermath. Mom ran me off after her first initial diagnosis/hospital stay of almost a month and was told she was no longer able to drive. (I live in TN, her in AL) Well, she continued driving and ended up getting lost quite a few times and assisted home by county sheriff deputies. At that time the state stepped in and took custody of my Mom and put her back in the hospital/geriatric psych ward. I had to go to court and get guardianship of her and she was only released if she was being placed in a home, which I did. Assisted living. Since you have the POA I would definitely talk to the bank about the double signatures someone else mentioned and if you can get some type of official diagnosis from her Dr, and show that as well, you might be able to do what you need to with her bank. It's a very sad road, this disease, and you just have to do everything you can to help her at this point whether she likes it or not. My prayers are with you.
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You are POA, Your NAME is on the Account and you have POWER over her now so stop her. She is taking herself to the poor house and Driving you Mad. Stop enabling her.xx
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cetude Jan 2020
It's her money and if she is mentally competent, DPOA is not even a legal device.
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Consult with her doctor. She may be getting dementia. Irrational financial behavior is a symptom. Can you lower the limits on her credit card, or switch to a prepaid credit card for her? Since she is still mobile and able to order more checks and cards, the situation is more difficult. Can you open up another account for her (such as a new savings account) and move most of her money to that account so that she doesn't see it? At some point you may want to request guardianship, but that is an extreme solution.
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I emphasize with you and your situation reminds me of issues I had with my mom! The last straw was when she withdrew $1000 in cash, not realizing that it could set off a red flag with a potential Medicaid application some day. I went to the bank and they said to take away her ID, driver’s license, because she cannot do any bank transactions without one. She had flunked her driver’s road test, so she didn’t need a license anymore, anyway. Luckily, I caught the withdrawal, as I checked her accounts multiple times per day. She gave the money back to me, I deposited it the next day, and also gave me her license. I created a credit card-sized ID for her wallet on my computer for safety reasons.

Your mom must be still driving, since your profile said you live far away and she’s getting to the bank somehow. So, the driving issue is probably something to start questioning, if these banking issues are happening. That’s another big issue and it’s not easy! Best of luck.
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dogparkmomma Jan 2020
Whatever state she lives in, she can get a state-issued ID card for identification. She would need an official ID for identification at the doctor's office for example, not something you made on your computer. the state ID never expires and I don't think that there is a fee. She could of course, use it at the bank but she really should have an official government issue ID.
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If she is "with it" enough to go out, drive, and cognizant especially to use her checking accounts, there is nothing you can do about it. It is not illegal to spend your own money, and DPOA can only take over if they cannot care for themselves. People spend money recklessly all the time. If she is not capable of taking care of herself, why is she living alone? If she can live on her own then if she goes to the poor house, she goes to the poor house. I suppose she will learn when the city turns off her water and electricity. You need to get a medical evaluation of her mental competency. If incompetent she needs around-the-clock supervision.
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EverHopeful1 Jan 2020
Sadly, she will not “learn when learn when the city turns off her water and electricity”. That is the nature of dementia. They are no longer capable of learning from mistakes in judgement. They’re no longer capable of judgement.
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You have the POA. It's time to go to her bank and change her accounts. Since she has been able to override your limits on her spending, it's probably time to limit her to either a prepaid 3rd party credit card or cash, and make you the signer of all checks on her account. I don't know if banks will let you do that or not, but maybe a letter from her neurologist will help.
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Can you close her bank account and open a new account with both your names so it would require both your names to withdraw?
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Please be sure you are on her bank account as POA and NOT JOINT OWNER. Our attorney told us if you are joint owner and your mom runs up debt, the creditor can come after YOUR ASSETS.
As POA you are entitled to do for your mom what she wants, but cannot go against her wishes. You may need to get conservatorship.
Good luck.
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PeeWee57 Jan 2020
How so? Creditors can lay claim to the joint account, but not other unrelated assets held solely by the co-owner.
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Get her a gift card/loadable debit card. Load a certain amount on it every month. Tell her that when she spends out the card, she will have to wait until next month to "go shopping." TAKE AWAY HER DEBIT CARD.
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I would create another account for her, perhaps a fiduciary account. POA ends upon her death so her account is locked to you until an order from the court says you can access it. A fiduciary account will let you access her money after she has passed so you can pay any outstanding bills and use it to settle her estate. I would have the bulk of her money deposited into this account. By doing this the account still has her name on it but you are the signatory for it and I believe she is not allowed to use it. Leave her original account in place for her use, let her know that when the money is gone there won’t be anymore until the following month. Is she doing her grocery shopping herself or is someone doing it for her? If she is you may have to give her more or if someone else is doing it for her you may have to set up contact with them so money isn’t an issue when it’s done. I say all this because we did this with dad two days before he passed. A very knowledgeable social worker in the hospice advised me to do this, I had no idea that I wouldn’t be able to access his account as POA after he passed. I was able to pay the funeral home for his cremation, if I hadn’t done this they would have had to wait. I was also able to pay the household expenses that occurred while I was closing the house.
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Pretty much - you can't. I know it's heartbreaking and frustrating, but you cannot stop her from spending her money.

Lending institutions make money on the 'hidden charges' so they are not going to work with you.

Unless you find some kind of loophole - there is really nothing you can do.
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Since you track her debit card spending I'm guessing you do online banking? If so, have you considered a new account that you can electronically transfer most of your mother's money to?

I was Mom's live-in caregiver. I took her to the bank for this new account (so she could open it under her name/SSAN) with me as a lower "owner" so I could control it. I transferred Mom's SS and her deceased husband's pension into it (all of Mom's income). From that new account, I transferred all her auto-pay utility bills including her property taxes and homeowners insurance. I kept meticulous records of every penny.

I kept around $200 in Mom's account that she was familiar with. With her dementia, she forgot about this new main account so she couldn't access it. If Christmas was coming up, I upped the amount in her account. It made her feel powerful to have one of us drive her to the bank (she couldn't remember how to call a cab. *phew*!), hand over her passbook and withdraw money.

Of course, your mom is more mobile and able to get herself to the bank. Do you think your mother is incompetent? Does your POA set the criteria for determining incompetence? If you think she's past the point of competence, then have her declared incompetent (I know, it's hard to cross that line!).

If so, give the bank that document. This should help stop her from opening accounts without your knowledge.

Also, enlist her bank (hopefully, they know her well?) to watch out for her. As a constant customer they should know her. My mom made her way to the bank one day to withdraw funds to send to what the teller knew was a scam. She notified the branch manager who stepped in to stop it.
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Rosetree, I am in tears for you and your family. Dementia is insidious and it affects the entire family.

Learning to be our parents authority figure is brutal, especially when they are not the least bit flexible. From everything that you have shared, your mom should not be living alone. She is a danger to herself and others. Not intentionally, her brain is dying and with that process all of her life skills and even survival skills are dying. That is what you are seeing with her obsessive purchasing, something isn't clicking in her brain and she may or may not even know it. You can't reason with dementia, that seems to be one of the 1st executive functions to go.

Call the local area on aging and ask them for a needs assessment. This will help get things in motion for your mom. If one of you can be there to share all the changes you see it would be helpful.

This resource will direct you to the resources available for mom. Believe me, there are so many resources available that we never even hear about until we are on the dementia train.

I would also talk with her neurologist about what they see and ask them what resources they can share. If you do not have a signed HIPAA can I recommend that you do one that specifically states that it never expires. The ones at the doctors office is only good for 1 year. Get one for all of you guys.

I am going to encourage you to get ready for a ride like no other and none you could have ever imagined. Being prepared for the unknown is going to help you. This disease is a rollercoaster that has no exit until death, it progressively gets worse and just when you think you have it figured out, things change and that is the only true known thing with dementia, constant changes.

You and your siblings will do well to get educated on dementia and Alzheimer's, they are not mutually exclusive in how they affect our loved ones. Just having information will make the trip a little less challenging. Try to find support groups for each of you.

Great big warm hugs! You can do this!

ps: can you check with her bank and credit card to see if they have a double verification process? We do this for online purchases and we have to give a code that comes to our phones or the credit card will not process. Just a thought, I don't know about point of purchase transactions, but worth asking and use your number, then you can deny the transaction.
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My mom routinely gave hundreds of dollars to my OB when he was alive. Usually quite frugal by nature, somehow she couldn't ever say no to him. This alone nearly bankrupted my folks. Horrible.

Dad was still alive and this drove him crazy! He set it up with the FPOA son that he was cosigning any check over a certain amount. They set this up with the bank over 15 years ago. (The cosigner doesn't have to be a family member.)

Sounds like you're caught between a rock and a hard place--the preloaded credit card that you put money on each month is a good idea. That is a 'gift' we know mother loves.

Sounds like you need to be 'boots on the ground' and make some changes in person. If your mom has any level of dementia, you need to check on that in person and facilitate the changes yourself. Doing it 'long distance' is impossible.

You will never be able to totally control her spending--until she cannot drive, it will be a daily problem. And then there's online shopping & catalogs....that's mother's big money problem. Luckily she is still aware of money and how much she has and hasn't got.
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moms2nddaughter Jan 2020
Can’t control her spending until she can’t drive?? My mother hasn’t driven in years, but she sure does know how to sneak her phone into the bathroom and call and order things!! They get very sneaky when they are told they can’t do something.
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I went through the same thing. Mom thinks she has an endless amount of money, but when she sold stock and spent all of it at the Casino, I put an end to her spending.
Some banks do not accept a POA. I took my POA paperwork and Doctors letters stating she couldn’t manage her money or any financial decisions . Then had her bank limit her spending amount. She was mad and accused everyone of stealing her money.
Be sure to have your mom diagnosed with Dementia or Alzheimers before to try limiting her accounts. It helps.
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Are you sure that your mother is actually spending all the cash she draws? I am not talking about credit and debit card purchases that leave an electronic trail. Time after time I have heard carers complaining about the amount of cash an elder seems to go through, only to eventually discover most of it secreted in the strangest of places.
Let me illustrate. My daughters MIL was regularly visiting her own mother in a retirement village where she was increasingly being monitored as a dementia resident. The MIL visited several times a week, her mother kept saying she had spent all her money so was given more. Amounted to about 50 dollars every visit.
Following her mothers death my daughters MIL had to clear out the flat. She found all sorts of missing items that had supposedly been stolen (according to the mother), like knitting and sewing needles, saucepans and so forth. But no items that could account for all the spent money.
Following my suggestion the MIL found bundles of cash wrapped in plastic hidden inside the toilet cistern, in jars buried in the garden, under carpet and lino that had been carefully pulled up and replaced. It amounted to some 20,000 dollars!
As far as your mothers out of control spending is concerned, all I can say is to approach the bank again and tell them you have POA and they must keep to thevli it you set. Could you have some of the funds tied up in a short term deposit where it is not accessible but still available in the future?
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rovana Jan 2020
But how would the bank stop the use of an ATM? And this sounds like POA, not guardianship.
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Does your mother have a diagnosis of dementia? Has she had a cognitive evaluation by a neuropsychologist, her primary care physician, or a geriatric psychiatrist? If so, I would speak to the bank and show them documents including the POA in order to limit her spending. The bank needs to be aware not to dispense cash to her. How is she getting to the bank? If she's driving and has a diagnosis of dementia, that is yet another issue that should be addressed. I would start with the bank and take it from there. If she's getting rides, you may have to shut that down by asking the person not to be available to take her. If she's driving, I would take the keys and disable the car until you have a driver's evaluation.
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The only account she should have access to is one with the limited amount you are giving her to spend AFTER you make sure she has enough in another account to pay her bills. Depending on when she gets paid limit the amount available so it’s not all there the 1st week. If she has $300.00 for two weeks she gets $150.00 week one and the balance the following week. When the $ is gone it’s gone. 

Family member has a terrible time budgeting his cash. He gets paid on Friday and typically it would be gone on Thursday. He was giving me $ to set aside to pay his bills but always needing more cash. We finally changed gears and he now has his check DD into an account I have access to. I withdraw his cash for the week and give him ½ on Friday. He can ask for the rest on Monday not before and if he runs out and needs more that is taken out of his weekend money. He HATES banks so he would rather not deal with one. He is a signer on the account and did have an emergency were he needed extra one week and was able to make the withdrawal while I was away. He has actually been able to now start building a savings and we were able to transfer from that to the account so his bills could still be paid on time.
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Is mom bored? Maybe find a better way to pass the time other than shopping? My mom was alone for most of the day/night (though YB lived there). She would walk to the department store & thrift store daily near her to occupy herself. She would buy on her credit card( YB had access) so many clothes & items & never used them! Mom was so used to having a card, was extremely hard to take it away when she went to CH.
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#1 See if the tags are still on the items she purchased.
#2 Then if so, return the items.
#3 Consider items she owns if they can be sold in a variety of ways - Ebay, social media, yard sales, estate sales, etc.
#4 Oftentimes elders DON'T NEED THAT MUCH STUFF!
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Friend's mom just died. Before that,,, He was trying to clear out some things. Did an Estate Sale, brought in more than $27K... Mostly Home Shopping Network things.

Tons of clothes never worn, shoes, gadjets. everything but the kitchen sink... Oh Wait a minute.... NO, No kitchen sink / shucks.
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With the POA, I was able to lower the credit limit on my Aunts credit cards. It takes a little work! You need to contact them and send copy of POA. With the POA, I could have cancelled her cards all together. Sounds like you need to go to her bank. They may be able to help you! They may be able to set a really low daily limit. My Aunts bank was extremely helpful.
Good luck and God bless !
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Rosetree002;

"I live 500 miles away so the two signature thing won;t wok but I will try the other things."

Actually this could work very well. For the most part she doesn't NEED the cash she is withdrawing. If you aren't there to sign, she can't take it out! Until getting a good resolution, this could stop some of the drain. Leave her enough for the debit card (or better a refillable "gift" card) for weekly spending only. So, instead of $300 for 2 weeks, give her $100 or even less for 1 week, then she can't blow it all in a few days. Does she even NEED that much spending money? About all she would really need to buy is groceries/toiletries.

Banks can be notorious for refusing to honor POA documents. Try to work something out with them until a better solution is found. Ask them to NOT reissue a debit card (and take it away again) if you can't move the funds yet. Setting up a sub-account, or better a fiduciary account someone else mentioned, you could transfer funds online from her primary to the other account as soon as it comes in. Not sure how that works, but you could inquire. Set up alerts for the online account so you know when the funds are there and can move them. I did this to ensure large drains didn't happen and after taking over SS, they changed the "pay" date to the 3rd from the 1st, so I had to ensure the funds were there (usually 2 days early for electronic deposit) so her MC fee could be paid on time (due the 1st.) It also makes it easier to monitor - I don't have to log in to check things as much! I only keep what is needed for monthly payments. She no longer has access, but it was fine when she was still living alone - her CC would get her groceries and we had taken the car away, so no real excessive spending at that point. She did all her spending long before the dementia!!! Clothes. Shoes. Handbags. Jewelry. Saved them all as she "kept them nice", but was not using them! Didn't find all this until we started cleaning out the place. UGH! There were multiples of necessities, some of which she did before take over, others because she would put stuff "away", forget she had it and ask for more.

I will post a different solution in a second comment, as I will likely run out of characters if I do it here!

I used my POA to get the account address changed to mine and took the existing checks away. I had forwarded (for about 1.5 months) her mail to get bills, so I could change the billing address to mine and set up payments, etc, but missed the insurance, which is yearly. NOTE TO ALL: federal mail, like SS documents, IRS, will not forward. Most billing didn't even need to see the POA - they don't care where the bills are sent, they only want their money! When she got the insurance bill and couldn't find checks, she called the bank to get checks, but they were sent to me! When she called again later after not getting the checks, they told her the checks were sent to me - funny that I never heard a word from her about that! This would also mean the replacement debit card would be sent to you, not her.

As with others, there are concerns about her driving, if she is. If not, how does she get to the bank and stores? Being far away, this is something you can't monitor, so how does one determine she is beyond capable, hopefully before something bad happens!
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I don't know if your mother has some mental incapacity or not, but I do know that you can work it so that she doesn't have credit cards or debit cards if she does, and you are her POA and Trustee of any Trust. Then you can get her a personal spending account that is hers alone, with checks. You can explain to her that she will have to make "this amount last" for whatever time you designate, and that this is crucial to leave her money going forward.
If your mother objects to this, and is mentally able to make the decisions, then you honestly have no power, and I don't think I myself would willingly act as POA for bill paying at that point. I do it, and it is an onerous task keeping up with everything and keeping meticulous records, even in a small estate type thing. Good luck.
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Rosetree002 and anyone else in this situation;

Unfortunately I have exceeded characters again, so will post the suggestions in a reply to this post.

Please do explore the options I suggest - it will get some or all access of mom's money away from her and you can limit how much she gets. As others noted, sending her statements, asking her to return items or curtail spending isn't going to work. Even in the early stages of dementia short-term memory is shot, so she will forget, probably as soon as she hangs up the phone, if not sooner!  Reasoning and managing day to day activities like finances are usually among the first capabilities to go as well. So, basically you won't be able to reason with her or get her to comply.

It will take action on your part, but if you can succeed with these changes, it will eventually make life simpler for you. IF she questions anything, have some excuse ready, blame SS or pensions, the government, saying it is their rules. Hopefully so long as she has access to a little money, this won't be an issue. If/when she runs out and asks for more, simply reply that she has used all her funds and needs to wait for the next paycheck(s).

I would also change her credit card limit - I planned to cover this under xrayjodib's post, but it will fit here! Hopefully you already have or can set up online access to her credit card account. Be sure to have the address changed, and alerts set up before contacting the CC issuer. I was not able to set up and account after sending/accepted as POA for her. Sadly there was an online account my brother set up, but I wasn't aware of it. Trying to make changes required calling from her phone (1.5 hours away!) as it rejected attempts to reset the PW. Turns out part of the problem was it had been a joint account with my dad and rejected because it was HIS b'date listed, not hers! Anyway, they allowed me phone access, I could freeze and cancel the card, but no online access. They wouldn't even agree to set up alerts so I would know when it was used. They DID honor my request to lower her limit, which was ridiculously and dangerously high! Be sure to drop the limit to an amount above what is currently on the card, to avoid overage fees, but as you pay it down, keep reducing the limit until it is a manageable amount (couple hundred?)

Rather than a debit card linked to her account, can you use a refillable card for discretionary spending, but also have a specific grocery store card that can only be used at THAT store for food and incidentals? Limit what the balance is, less than what you are allocating now for 2 weeks, and only refill when you have to/feel it is reasonable.

More to come!
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disgustedtoo Feb 2020
Ways to curb spending/access to money:

There's no indication what her source(s) of income are, but assume primary is SS. If she has pension, deal with that separately, but is likely doable.

The SS IS something you CAN control. Sign up with SS to become rep payee. I was using my mother's pension/SS deposits to make her payments, but actually SS does NOT approve of this - they consider it illegal as they don't honor POAs. Usually they don't know, so it can "work" but isn't right. I found out when I had to sign up to change the address, as you can't forward federal mail and we were going to sell the condo. She wasn't capable then to make the change.

You should be able to do this at your local SS office. Calling the main SS number will put you on hold for a long time and in the end you will still have to go to the local office to be "interviewed." I had moved over the state line (not 500 miles away, but that should not matter) and used MY local SS office, not hers. I called, they set up an appointment. I did NOT have to bring mom and they never looked at one piece of paper I brought to show I was managing her funds, had POA, etc (federal entities do NOT honor POAs - they have their own forms.) It wouldn't hurt to bring items, such as your POA and a note from the doctor indicating she is cognitively impaired. The bank statements showing she is over-spending might help too. Better to have too much not needed than not enough!

They'll send notice to your mother while application is pending and she *could* contest it. IF she has enough wits about her, she could contact them, but documents might help you. Thankfully when mom's came, she was in MC and staff learned NOT to hand mail to her (they gave her a bill once that slipped through and regretted it!) Once approved, they'll issue 1st payment as a check in YOUR name as rep payee for your mother. When you have an approval letter, open a special rep payee acct (Check your local banks while waiting - go to one that knows how to do this! This was the longest, most difficult part for me as the CU staff were clueless, even with their "cheat sheet"!) Once the acct is set up, deposit the check and call the local office again to have direct deposit made to it. This acct is ONLY accessible by you, should ONLY have SS funds and mom can't touch it! It should be like any other acct where you can set up bill payments. The SS require you file a report at year end, but it can be done online and is fairly simple. Just keep receipts for anything in the event they ever want to see them. Since most is paid with bill payer, statements and bills should be fine.

If she has other source(s) of income, you'll have to explore how you can "take over" or redirect her deposits to another acct (NOT to the SS acct - that is only for SS funds.) Mom's pension was dad's federal pension, which as noted doesn't honor POAs. THAT took more effort than the SS takeover! They needed specific wording from her doctor and the one she had at the time promised but never delivered (despite 9 months of pestering the office!) and the one we switched to due to moving her closer to me had to issue several letters to get it "right." Thankfully they allowed her deposits to continue to the regular acct and appointed me rep payee, allowed me to make changes and changed the mailing address to mine. So far they have not asked for any accounting, but they can.

In our case, I use ALL the SS/pension funds to cover part of her MC fee, making reporting simple! The balance of the fee and other necessities/expenses come from the trust fund we set up to protect her assets from her. For that, accounting would only be to my brothers, but they have access to the trust, never say anything and don't really do anything to help, so if they have questions later, too bad, so sad, you had access and could have asked. I keep tight control over what goes in/out, bare minimum, so they should have no beef, but I'm ready for any crap they give me!
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Rose tree, the only way you can keep her from spending her money is if she is incompetent and you can get guardianship of her by going to court. If the court finds her competent she can spend her money any way she wishes. I have POA of my 95 year old mother but she is competent so I can’t take over her finances. She is a gambling addict and spent every dime my father saved. I already talked to an elder lawyer. Just because someone makes bad choices doesn’t mean they are incompetent. You can’t take her rights away unless 2 doctors find her incompetent and you go to court to get guardianship. Then you can take over her finances.
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