How do I know when to remove my mom from her home? I can judge for her safety, but have been told legally I could be in trouble.

As much as your mom doesn't want to leave her home(no one ever does)it definitely sounds like it's past time to place her in a memory care facility, as she is no longer safe in her own home.
You know that she will only continue to get worse and you certainly don't want something really bad to happen to her before she then will have no choice but to be placed.
It's always recommended to place someone with any of the dementias in a memory care facility before they get to far gone, so they can still interact with the staff and other folks, and get used to their new surroundings.
You may just be surprised how well your mom may do in a place like that being around other folks her age and having different activities to keep her busy.
And the best part is you get to get back to just being her daughter and advocate and not her caregiver. That my dear is priceless.
Wishing you and your mom the very best on this heart wrenching journey.

I agree with funkygrandma59 I am afraid. I think that it is no longer safe for your mother to be alone. You don't mention how close you are in terms of distance to get to her, and it does sound like you have done EVERYTHING to make it safe, including a camera system. I think that you are close because you mention going over to do pills now three times a day.
I am curious who has suggested to you you are legally responsible and for what????? Are you your Mom's POA?
I would discuss current arrangements with her MD first of all. I believe I might call APS and discuss with them the distance, your expectations, how often you are monitoring the camera (I am aware this can be nearly constant with our phones today).
Again, how close to where she is are you? And what if you are 60 miles away when you see something that requires checking on her, a fall, say.
I am uncertain, given ALL you have done for safety why I am so uncomfortable still. Perhaps a fear of a fire? I just think that she is no longer competent in any way to care for herself, and should therefore no longer be alone.

Memory cares are private pay. But if she has the money its good to place her. She could try to cook and leave oil or boiling water on the stove. Dementia has no rhyme or reason, is very unpredictable. With MC even Long-term care with Medicaid paying is better than sitting in a house all day alone and not being able to do anything.

Do you have POA? If Immediate thats good, if Springing you need a doctor or two to say that she is incompetent to make informed decisions. Its no longer what Mom wants, its what she needs. She needs to be somewhere where she is safe, gets 3 meals a day, meds given to her on time and care. MC will give her socialization, activities, and entertainment. My Mom was in LTC and got all this. Also, freedom to walk around.

Try bringing her to your place again. If she says she wants to go home, just agree with her, we'll go tomorrow. If she's as far gone as she sounds, you could keep doing this every day, telling her she's going back home tomorrow. If this works, then it will probably work to trick her to walk into a memory care facility, and she probably wouldn't be able to put together all the steps to get out. That's often what it comes down to. If she is capable of dressing for the weather, calling a cab or a friend, and calmly demanding the aides let her out the door, then she could get out of the facility. But that takes a series of steps and planning skills that she probably doesn't have anymore. After a devastating fall, we brought my mother from rehab straight to memory care. She wanted to leave, but she was stuck on the fact that she did not have her house keys and did not have her wallet. If she had been more capable of planning ahead, she would've realized she could get the house keys from her neighbor when she arrived home. She had one friend who did not agree she belonged there. We told the facility that no one should take her out but me and my brother. But this one friend was our age, always well-dressed and charming, looked like he might be her son. He was a soft touch, and if she had asked, he would've taken her home, and I doubt the aides would've noticed. But my mother didn't do those things, even though she wanted to get out. Why? Because she had dementia and couldn't plan the steps.

TY

No one on this help site has directly witnessed evidence to validly recommend what is best for your Mother. It’s scary people say your mother should be moved without knowing anything first hand.

There are only Five LEGAL ways for your mother to be removed from her home and one work around way. Remember, law says, everyone has the right to make their own bad decisions even if you disagree with them, except if a doctor, or Court says decisions are wrong.

Dimentia, Alzheimer’s, and other medical issues are no longer are automatiche trips out of one’s home even for their own good. Remember assistant and memory care living, as well as long term living,may not be any safer. Patients fall and get worse mentally outside of home. Change is worst for dimentia and senior mind. My Mum’s doctor says life expectancy reduces by living in those places, bc patients are in unfamiliar places without comforts of own home.

Here are the ONLY legal ways to remove anyone:

1. Full consent of senior. Try it.
2.POA to you effective immediately or effective by date you wish to move mother.
3. POA requiring regular doctor and one other doctor (in CA) to certify in writing they conducted hour long assessment founding she is not longer able to care for herself safety in her home/incompetence.

Then she has option to pay for help to come on at first four hours a day threetimes a week which helps. Sometimes this prevents the final move out. It gets enough down and provides socializing. But socializing isn’t a legal nor medical requirment to move or stay. It’s only a quality of life. Multi millions of Competent seniors prefer not to have socialization and remain at home for their disabilities.

4. Two doctors certifying in writing she is not able to safely reside by herself. (This is law in CA.) One doctor must be her primary doctor for at least seven years.

5. Court issued temporary Conservatorship to begin process of full Conservatorship. Remember a POA only as a “Nominee” for a Conservatorship. Only Court can make you actual legal conservator after it’s long, expensive, full investigation. So the work around is have her sign w notary a Durable POA giving POA the right to choose residences once POA is effective.

6. Work around-Either you obtain consent of the Senior, written certification from two doctors (in CA), POA becomes effective, you get conservatorship or, hope the assisted, memory, or long term care facility, accepts your Mother with the POA as you deciding for her and with the certification from doctor. Most facilities do accept this. So that helps your situation. But know this. These facilities, ALL of them require you get doctor to sign form mentioning all mother’s medical info, get a Tb, Precussis blood test, and a sign off by regular doctor for to the facility. Facilities MUST get the doctor to sign off. It’s standard so facility knows medical history and current state of their future occupant.

BEST OPTION if you have no POA, the best options is to combine your mother’s consent and have the doctor sign off on the State’s form that your mother is okay to reside in the facility.

Next best option is have Doctor sign statement mother still has understanding of herself, who her family is, her assets, the consequence of her actions as related to estate planning wills, POA. Then have her sign a State Durable POA giving you immediate POA over her and write/add to generic form that she assigns you legal right to make all residential assignments with a notary. Then you have legal right to decide for her. Make effective date immediate.

Just bc one has dimentia/Alzheimer’s doesn’t mean they loose their legal rights. Too many people are in rush to have doctor sign off patients is incompetent. That only prevents patient from consenting and from giving you valid POA to help her which you need. Don’t need all your wits to sign POA. Look up Probate Code req for patients’ legal rt to give POA. That will help you. Then get off internet

She would be better in a facility because she would have more interaction with people. This is no way for her to live isolated and alone. At least try and get her to go to adult day care a few times a week.

When my mother's dementia progressed to the point where everyday items like cleaning detergents and ovens became a danger to her, I had her moved into the Memory Care bldg of the Assisted Living residence she was living in for 4 years prior. I didn't want to wait for a crisis to happen before making sure she was properly cared for 24/7 and kept as safe as humanly possible from things that would harm her, including wandering off one day or night and getting lost. I had both POAs for her, she had a medical diagnosis of dementia, and that's all that was required to move her to safety.

Sometimes it's a POAs job to put aside what a parent "wants" in favor of what they need. Socialization is something all elders require, along with an activity program designed to keep them from getting bored. My mom greatly benefited from the social programs she had going on at her MC, and the mini bus rides they'd go on for scenic drives.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd place mom in the Memory Care ALF in a heartbeat. You've all taken on a huge burden in order to keep mom at home when there will likely come a time where it's impossible to continue doing so.

Whatever you decide to do, just keep mom's safety the number 1 priority instead of her "desire" to stay home. The cast of characters it takes to enable that desire is enormous and takes a big toll after a while.

Wishing you the best of luck with a difficult situation.

Mom can no longer 'drive'.
So technically you have the 'wheel'. But I pick up that Mom is still the one 'steering' her life.

Does that sound right?

Are you looking to define when to take over the 'steering' - for safety or legal reasons?

Or are you wanting to explore the moral dilemma? When to stop asking Mom's permission? To act for her best interest, even if this is against her wishes?

I pick up that you want to keep Mom in her familiar surrounds as long as possible. Is that right?

A very thoughtful & loving thing to do. It sounds like with family + non-family caregivers this has been extended well past what many can do. As independence fades, having supervision, then assistance is required. Calls & cameras, then pop in visits, then part then full day assistance. You've drawn a line for when nighttime assistance is required.

Did you want to examine what *possible* looks like?

I'd say a lot depends on how much assistance Mom needs & how much assistance she has over the day.
Eg when alone, can she press a falls alarm? Call 911? My Mother can't & therefore cannot be left alone at all.

Requires supervision and facility placement now since your mother is at risk to hurt herself or possibly start a fire.

I do not have dementia myself but live alone at age 67, very active but isolated with mild autism and anxiety disorder that should have social support. I have tried unsuccessfully to find mild autism support groups in CA near where I reside. One group stopped in late 2015 when their leader had to retire and he lived about 70 miles from my region. The ARC in SF stopped in-person events from Covid, but I will try their program again. I am getting professional help to cope with my desentigrated family situation from my late divorced and very dysfunctional parents.

Since my family lives out of state and rarely contacts me, some not reply at all, unless I contact them first, it makes me wonder how long I can stay independent in my own condo with nice neighbors and few friends. I'm at isolation risk, but I nor anyone else in my supportive family have enough money to move me to independent living with other people I have expressed. No facility will take me with insufficient income, I being on only SSA, but I feel OK, except for anxiety disorder, in my lovely place for now, perhaps for 10 to 15 more years. I do have 3 natural family agents for medical POA but only for health decisions. I am the youngest of six siblings, with three I never hear from when I tried to contact them, my one nephew who has bipolar and not my agent, and just one niece who is an agent on my health directive.

I'm afraid I may outlive existing family to be left eventually unsafe living alone. If I lose all siblings, my Texas niece is my last contact. If something happens to her, I may contact area on aging welfare in my county for help.

Personally my opinion from caring in my home for my mother in law years ago. We brought in care givers for when we could not be there. This worked well since she never got to the point of being violent. Your mom sounds very similar to my mother in law. She also slept through the night. It sounds more like dementia and possibly she had a small stroke that affected her speech. Have you thought of speech therapy. See if you can find an elder care doctor. They have more compassion for the elderly. Wishing you the best. I am one that believes in keeping your loved ones in their homes as long as you can. Mother in law made it to 97, mom 95 and dad passed last month at 99.

Deep inside, I think we know when it’s time, but there are so many factors that cloud the process. The issue of money and what it will cost. The upheaval of moving, finding a facility. Going head to head with family members, or even mom herself. And the one I think is greatest to overcome, the realization that this is no longer the person who took care of everyone else. This is now a person who needs total care herself. We don’t let two year olds make big decisions for themselves. This is where you are now. I think once you flip into that mindset, you will know what to do. You said your mom was or is becoming less verbal and cannot communicate well. She can’t operate basic devices in the home. You’ve done a great job keeping it all together, but her life is very empty and I’m sure yours is quite stressful as well. No one wants to leave their home. It’s probably instinctual, it’s so deeply embedded in our psyche. But you need to think for her now. Is living alone in a place where she cannot turn on a tv or get herself a glass of water a good life for her? What happens if she falls, or decides to use the stove one day, or simply walks outside and doesn’t come back in? And nothing is worse than isolation, especially when one is scared or anxious. Have you looked into getting caregivers to stay with her? Adult daycare? Have you explored local memory care facilities? Once you research your options and see what is available, you will also understand better where your mom stands on the spectrum of autonomy. I know it’s hard, and there is a tremendous amount of emotional turmoil that goes with it, but I know you want what’s best for her, and you will feel more at peace when you get her into a safer and healthier situation.

It’s always a struggle to decide where they would be better off. I think it depends on the person’s personality. If your mother is fairly docile, then getting her into MC could happen by telling her that her doctor wants her to get some tests and she will need to stay overnight. Then take her to the MC unit and one night becomes forever. Once she settles in she may do really well because she won’t be isolated anymore.

I struggle with the “safety” issue. Yes, we want to keep them safe. But is it any worse to die in your own home from an accident than die slowly while lingering in a MC unit for potentially years? Who are we keeping them around for, them or us? I hear people say all the time that you wouldn’t let a 2 year old make decisions about where they will live or decisions around physical safety. Well of course not. You raise a child in the belief that they will live to adulthood and you make decisions to ensure they do. Our loved ones have a terminally progressive disease that is only going to end one way. How long do we want them to suffer the indignity of this disease? Personally, I have decided to let my father stay in his home, as imperfect as the situation is, until there is an event that triggers placement. If that happens I will have no choice, but until then I’ll risk his safety in favor of his happiness. This is a choice I have made based on my dad’s personality. You may choose something different for your mother based on her personality.
Maybe it will be a fall, or a neighbor calling APS, or something worse. But I know my dad. He is a very difficult person and I fully believe that if he knew he was headed for a facility he would kill himself. So he will stay in his home until there is an event that forces him out. That is the decision I have made and I am at peace with it. I wish you luck with your mother.

The TV remote got me right away. Mom couldn't tell the difference between that and the phone. Then she called me to fix her computer again and I missed her by 5 minutes, she called a driver to take her to an appointment that we went to the day before. Out there somewhere without her cell phone! Too scary. Took her to assisted living and that lasted a couple of months and moved her to memory care which makes sure all her medication is taken. She had a medicine machine that did really well for years, she liked when it flashed and said "time for your medication". Then she started missing them because she was tired all the time.
One thing I'd like to mention is that she started getting strange in the one bedroom assisted living, she thought her furniture was in other peoples apartments. It finally dawned on me and the facility that she should go to a studio in MC. My belief was that she would go into one room and lose her furniture because she couldn't see it. I tried situating her between both rooms and showing her it was all there. She is better in a studio where she could see everything she owns. I wish I would have put her in MC first hand and saved her the confusion.
The wandering was the final one, thankfully the police was able to track her cell phone that was left behind. I would definitely go with being safe and worry about proving that I did anything unlawfully. I'm sure you have enough evidence to prove your intentions are of good nature.
What does your heart tell you? Sometimes our heads get just as muddled as theirs. Be well!

Visiting Angels or Care.com may be available to get her a companion and an extra set of eyes. If she lives near a senior center, she could benefit from being involved.

You ask two questions: should you remove, and are you in legal trouble.

I won’t add to the comments about the first, just the ‘legal’ risk. You are taking a lot of trouble to support her, and you know that it is what she wants. I very much doubt if you will be in any ‘legal’ trouble. You may get a nasty comment when something goes wrong, from someone who thinks that you should have moved her earlier, but no ‘proceedings’ – and you would be most unlikely to be convicted anyway.

Remember that old people fall and have other accidents, whether they are at home or in AL or even higher forms of care. As long as you have eliminated obvious risks (like a gas stove that could be turned on unlit), you are doing the best you can. My own 'pet risk' - candles that get forgotten.

Does she have funds for in home care? To handle pills, meals showers? That would help her out, give her some interaction with people during the day (that aren't familiar) and you have the cameras to be sure she's getting care from the outsiders. That might help to keep her home a little longer and perhaps could move her if she becomes unaware of her surroundings.

Or take her to your house and when she wants to go home, find a reason she needs to stay a while. If she is aware enough, tell her it's just not safe all alone in this day and time...go from that angle. Maybe or maybe not on her agreeing to move to your house.

Who's going to give you a hard time legally -- Mom??

That's not happening, so go ahead and place her for her own safety.

A Social worker told my mom she could no longer take care of herself and she either move in with us or be placed in a home.

Start researching places for her to go to, without her. Look at Memory Care units. You want to see what they have to offer, and whether she would fit in.

Does she still get physicals yearly? Does she go to the dentist? Does she keep up her hygiene or do you have to do it for her? Does she cook for herself or do you provide the meals? Can she shower by herself (and get herself clean) or do you need to do it for her?

For a friend, it was her doctor who said that she needed to be in a Memory Care ward. Up to that point, she was living alone, with her indoor and outdoor cats, walked around the complex without any aid. She occasionally got turned around so she couldn't find her way back, however the neighbors would help her. She gardened for others. I talked to her and you would not think anything was amiss. Occasionally, she would have dates wrong, however, that is not unusual. People took turns getting her to wherever she needed and she was meticulous and could schedule her outings.

After the doctor's declaration, her son who was travelling internationally, went into her condo to move her and get it ready to sell, everything was clean and in good order, however, old. No rotting food in the refrigerator. Toilet and bathroom were in acceptable condition. No unsanitary problems. I don't know why her doctor said that she needed to be placed (maybe she wanted it?)

About your Mom going to your house, she might not want to live with you. There might be too much activity or objects in your house. She might feel that you are not paying enough attention to her when you are at your home. When I bring my Mom over to my house or to a party that she was invited to, as soon as she is finished eating and conversation turns away from her, she loudly announces that she wants to go home (back to MC). We were at a party once and she moved her feet so that her wheelchair "speared" the person I was talking to. Ironically, I was talking to a doctor, about her.

Once I moved my Mom into Memory Care, my Mom found it a lot easier to live. Yes, she was bored, but that is because she couldn't follow along with all the activities. However, there were a lot of caregivers who could tend to her needs and just sit with her and have a one-on-one conversation.

To help with some of your Mom's boredom, you might see if you can find a senior day care for her.

So to answer your original question, a trusted professional could tell you when Mom can no longer live alone. I don't know what trouble you would get in legally if you forced her into a Memory Care home other than her ability to pay for it.

In my case, what tipped the scales in favor of MC, was the cost. The cost for senior day care, the caregivers at night, the cost of the abode that she was living in (e.g. housekeeping) was more than the monthly cost for MC. That didn't include the cost of my cooking, buying food, doing the laundry, etc.

CynthiaLO: As your mother is three years into an Alzheimer's diagnosis, she should NOT be living alone. She requires managed care facility living.

My granny didn’t want to go into a home, she was attached to her house (which I inherited and live in now ) and it took the drs to get her to agree: she couldn’t cook anymore due to neck pain and my mom also convinced her by them letting her try the good meals they provided . We would bring her back here to her house to sign checks for bills, etc . She would cry saying she wanted to leave but finally realized they could help her 24/7 there. My mom was a nurse and got a Dr friend who saw her before to convince her. She died in 2021 but always longed for home. If you can get her into a place she should see how helpful it is, we moved granny’s bed and dresser, etc there to give her familiar items from her house

I have found many knowledgeable and caring people with helpful insights on this forum and appreciate them all. I can only speak from my own experience. Mom is 93 and has been living on her own for 14 years since my father passed. She was diagnosed with dementia/alzheimers a few years ago when we started home care visits a few times a month. She progressed to not remembering how to use the remote, she would turn off the heat in the house, had several falls etc. She burned pots on the stove that we had to disconnect. She was admitted to the hospital a few times due to not taking meds for BP and then sent to rehab. She had not slept in her bed for years because of the "gangsters" that would come in at night and take her things and threaten her with knives. She refused to leave her home of 30 plus years so my brother picked her up one day and drove her out of town to the ALF closer to us. She was furious and had gone off her meds, threatened to jump out of the car, call the police and have us all arrested for kidnapping. Today, after almost one month in the ALF she has made friends and is socializing, although she speaks often of dying. We have turned "against her" and taken her money, her home and are now "millionaires". Which of course is not true, we researched, visited many sites and took time off from work to do this. We are in the process of selling her home to a family member to fund her future very expensive care.

I struggled with the "right time" to do this for so long but now at peace with my decision. I am the "trigger" bad daughter (we never were really in a good place) so my brother still visits occasionally. I work behind the scenes, coordinating with the ALF for her needs/appointments. Best wishes to you, my heart goes out to you, make the best decision for mom, don't follow your heart as I did and wait for so long. Its a thankless job but you are doing the absolute best thing for her.

Just something to think about, in the event of a fire will she know to leave the house? Does she bathe and dress, wearing clean clothes daily. Is she drinking water to help prevent UTIs? Can she prepare food? Is she using the stove? Safety is the number concern, so if you can observe her doing things on her own, she is probably safe for awhile. In a facility, she would at least have people to interact with, and she would get used to it pretty quickly.

My friend had to move his mother to a home this is what he did... He had his wife take her on a day trip to make her tired. While they were gone he had movers take her furniture to the new place set it up to the best they could so it looked like her home, hanging pictures, setting up the bedroom, living room, etc. Then when the day was over his wife brought her back to the facility and she never knew the difference. Also, just keep telling her "this is your home" "yes you are home" maybe even spread some of her perfume or a familiar aroma around that would say "home" to her.

I hope that your mother set up powers of attorney for medical and financial matters, to be activated when she is no longer able to make good decisions for herself. And if she did, I hope you are her POA. As dementia advances, it is no longer possible to reason with the person who has dementia. Your mother has 2 basic options: in-home caregivers, or moving to an memory care/nursing home facility. Much will depend on her finances. Right now, you are her caregiver, but dementia doesn't get better. Her mental and physical abilities are likely to decline further. My mother had advanced dementia and eventually could not walk or feed herself. She needed 24/7 care. Have a plan for the time when you are not able to care for her yourself. To respect her wishes as much as possible, can you hire in-home caregivers to help you out? And hire someone to do the cleaning, laundry, etc? If "strangers" will be going into her house, lock up her valuables and financial papers. It's time for you to take over all of her financial decisions. Have all of her statements sent to your address, and set up online accounts. Ask her credit card company to issue a card on her account with your name on it so that you can purchase things for her. You also have to be on file with Social Security and Medicare to be able to do things on her behalf. You might be able to do this on the phone with her sitting next to you to agree to what you are asking for. If in-home care doesn't work out, or you need more skilled staff to take care of her, you may have to move her to a memory care facility. If you do this, look for one near you so that you can visit often and oversee her care. If she's capable of understanding you can discuss it with her. Otherwise, you may have to do this on your own, making your best judgements about what she would like. Don't give her a lot of advance notice if she will be moving. She'll forget anyway. Tell her that she needs to be in a place that can give her more care. Just pack the essentials at first and then see what she needs to have you bring later to make her more comfortable and familiar with her surroundings. Only pack clothes that are easy to get on and off, are comfortable and can take laundry with hot wash and dry. Good luck to you, your mother and family!

I can’t add to the very good advice and perspective given here, but wanted to say that for me, it has been a year-long process for my mom and family to buy in to mom’s move to AL, and probably soon to MC. It took a couple of falls, too many calls to 911, and my sister’s eventual understanding that her promise to dad to “never put mom in a home” was not binding.

The push back against the “fixes” I have tried to offer—from far away, so I understand their perspective to a point—has been extreme. They refused any outside support—just angry that I didn’t live there to help. And no, they would not move closer to me, just insisted my husband “find a job in their town.”

The life they wanted wasn’t possible anymore. Dad finished out his life at home in a very bad situation, but it was all he would allow. Old school, and strong willed, to put it mildly. But he ended his life on his terms. It took awhile, but I am at peace with that now.

Mom and sister finally letting go of what “used to be” was necessary before we could move forward. It has been really, really hard. My mom and sister move into AL together this week. I have no idea how it will go. Hoping for the best.