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The POA must always act in the interest of the person granting POA. A POA should never put their name on accounts or pay themselves. Look up "conflict of interest"
It's easy to say what a POA is supposed to do. The question is how the POA is held accountable. In other words, what if they don't do what they are supposed to. The place to start if you believe a POA is not acting in the person's best interest would be to consult with an attorney, preferably the attorney who represents the party whose interests are being violated--that might be the attorney who prepared the POA document. For free advice, you might consult with someone at your local Council on Aging or any agency that investigates elder abuse. A POA who violates the trust of the person they represent is acting illegally. If their action rises to a criminal level, the County Prosecutor would press charges, so you could start by calling that office. They might refer you to another agency or advise you to press civil charges.
Kimberley, If you simply disagree with what the POA is doing with your mom's finances, that doesn't mean that the POA is acting illegally. I'm not sure where the answer about "beneficiaries" comes from. Your mom's POA is not responsible to anyone except your mom--to act as your mom would have done had she been able. It doesn't matter if the POA spends up all Mom's money, leaving nothing for you, as long as the money is spent as Mom wanted. It is also acceptable for the POA to pay himself, but only if he is providing something of value to Mom equal to what he is being paid for. For example, the POA owns an apartment where Mom lives and receives rent from her the same as he would charge any tenant. But he doesn't have the right to deed her house over to him just because he wants it or to clean out her financial accounts without being able to show that the money was used for her benefit or as she wanted.
My name is on Mom's checking account but every penny that is used from that account must have a receipt because Social Security audits where the money is going, I assume they audit to see if her money is being used for her needs. I use it for groceries, paying bills, air conditioning repair, etc. Her old coffee pot bit the dust a few days ago (she likes coffee), I got the receipt!
Some of these questions may be addressed in the POA document. My POA for my mom prohibits payment for acting as POA, but allows for the reimbursement of expenses. The document may state any requirements for reporting to a third party. It may also state that financial information should be kept private. It should spell out what specific acts are allowed by the POA. You may want to request a copy of the POA to see if it answers your questions.
I was my mothers DPOA and now am the executor for her will. It is my understanding that a POA is allowed to pay themselves IF it is written into the POA agreement. In my case it was but I chose not to take payment because I really didn't need the money but mainly because it would have cause bad blood between me and my brother. I also had my name on one of moms checking account and a savings account for ease in paying bills and moving money when necessary. I am very careful in keeping notes on any money spent. As executor I am now glad I have my names on those accounts as we move towards probate - I have been able to pay all post death expenses using my mothers money rather than my own - we are well over several thousands of dollars at this point and I will need money for court costs, accountant fees, and possibly even obtaining a bond - all required for executing moms will. But when it comes to POA the responsiblity is to act in the principals best intrest and to the extent possible, make decisions that would be as if the person were making them themselves. In looking back at it all I believe that's why my mother chose me rather than my brother - her favorite child. Mom knew she could trust me completely to act in her best intrest and make decisions that allowed her to live as she wanted for as long as she could.
Rainmom this is how we have handled the DPOA with my dad, who lives with our family. The DPOA document only says I cannot make gifts to myself, but technically if I had oodles of hours of work for my dad, I could pay wages to myself. We as a family do lots of things for my dad which are not reimbursed 100%. After he dies, however, there is a special account he has set aside for our family because of how we have taken care of him. If he does not need this money during his lifetime, it will become ours. However, what about executor expenses, I am not sure about that. Thanks for posting all the fees that you are having to pay out for court costs, accountant fees, and bond. I will have to look into that.
I am glad the question was raised because as POA for my friends, I hoped for structure and guidance to do it right. There doesn't seem to be any. They gave me authority over everything and left the decisions to my judgment. Fortunately, there is a second and third POA and my habit is to keep them informed about what I am doing so they are in the loop. I am on their bank account so I can pay the bills and I only use money that is for bills. I do not reimburse my self for the 20 mile round trip to their condo as I work on it to clean it out, fix it up and sell it. I am doing this out of friendship, not financial gain. I want to be able, should I be asked, to show what I have done with their money and not done with it, even though no one will probably ever ask. There are no children and the relatives are very distant. I am also the executor of their estate and should there be any money left, I know where it is to go. At around $7300 a month for memory care, I should be able to stretch out these payments for 2 to 3 years before starting to run out. Since the 90 year old friend is in good health, it could easily go that long and more. VA benefits can kick in once he is poor enough and help, along with retirement and social security benefits. That should come to around $4,000 a month at that point.
JohnnyJ - it was my habit as well to keep my second - my brother - informed. At first I told him about every little detail but he really didn't want that so I kept good notes and we talked about the big stuff. Whenever my brother asked about anything I shared openly, with the exception of actual account numbers and passwords- figuring it was safest for everyone to only have one person with access - if anything was amiss - it could only be me. I keep everything in two large hang-file boxes along with a notebook that does have account numbers and passwords, along with activity notes. That way if anything happened to me all hubby would have to do is give my brother the two boxes and the notebook and brother would have everything he needed to take over. My philosophy extended to an occassion when my brother wanted to see my mothers will several months before she passed. Since I didn't want our other brother to get wind of it and think we were up to no-good - I invited them both to my house and we had a pre-will reading. It felt kinda creepy to me but it kept my brother happy. Here's the thing, in my opinion - things can much more easily get hostile with sibling - when one is POA or executor, when that sibling gets all secretive and/or power hungry. My middle brother and I have NEVER gotten along yet in the past six years we have put our differences aside and worked together in our parents best interest. Sure - he's lost it with me a few times - little sis having the authority rubbed him the wrong way because he is sooo much smarter - but our arguments were always about level of care - never the money. I honestly believe this is because I have been completely open and accountable to him any time he made an inquiry. I have no secrets and neither did our parents. In my humble opinion it's the only way to go. If my parents had asked me to keep information from my brothers I do not think I would have accepted either role of DPOA or executor and the tremendous responsibility that comes with the jobs.
in my case my mother's Monday is in her Trust ( except for some cash in a joint account with me as POA for paying bills). I have to report to my litigious sister because she is a beneficiary of Mom's Trust. She wants to throw me off as Trustee and is looking at every move I make and then some.
JohnnyJ, bless you for being so helpful to your senior friend. I hope you have current figures on Memory Care-- in my area it is quite a lot more than $7300/month. But your friend seems well situated compared to most! Keep up your goodness. The world needs a lot more people like you.
When I talked to my mom's lawyer, she said I was due an amount for the work I put in for her - that was better than keeping track of every dollar I spend [mom loves iced cappicinos etc] - I'm worth this because I have increased her assets by 4 times what I've taken which mainly goes to her grandchildren & I'm fine with that
ALL OF YOU are worthy of notice - unless the assets are small you should get what they used to say 'an honourarium' - don't demean yourself to keep the assets for others to share because they won't acknowledge your worth if you let them run over you ... otherwise just get a tattoo of tire treads on your back to save time... lol
YOU are worthy of your time & effort that you put out for your loved one so don't let anyone tell you otherwise - I find the small amount I get keeps me from the frustration I see many here venting & of feeling I'm being taken for granted - after expenses I get lunch money for twice a week or a bottle of wine a week [we all know how these relaxations help] or 1 massage a month - I'm fine with that because I mentally toast mom on sat. night as I sip that wine
This is such an intriguing discussion! I have not aksed my dad to be paid for all the time I spend driving him to dr's appointments for example, or church (different from my own). But he has certainly offered to pay me, for gas, or take me out for Sunday brunch. I usually decline because I have so much to do at home with 3 teenagers/college age. But he does have an aide who comes in 2x a week and this young man is paid almost $100 for noon-3pm. Sometimes they go to McDonald's (my dad loves it...) or bowling alley, there is a good daily special there. This is so wonderful that he can get out of house 2x a week. And it is "guy" time. My point is yes, there is some times for the POA to be paid for actual work, and certainly the "market" for those workers who assist the seniors is going to be $100 for a short afternoon's time. I know i can do my dad's tax retuns on TurboTax in about 3 or 4 "short afternoons" but I have never asked to be paid for this, however it would seem to be justified since, i can ONLY do one thing at a time! I can do dad's taxes or I can bring my daughter to soccer, but not both! And, if I am forced to sacrifice a soccer practice to bring dad to Urgent Care, all of a sudden, that should be considered OverTime pay. Come to think of it, does anyone have an actual work contract attached to their POA, or separately? Maybe that would quell many siblings concerns if the principal had a contract in place.
Vicksky, the sticky part is that a POA cannot pay themselves. So you sit down with an attorney and draw up a Medicaid complaint contract for tax prep, chauffeuring services, etc.
Hej Vicksky, The $7300 figure I used was last month's memory care cost. It goes up and down depending on the number of days in the month. His memory care apartment consists of a small, walk-through kitchen with room enough for a kitchen table and chairs, sink, appliances and cupboards, a decent sized bedroom with adjoining bath and shower and a smaller room with a couch, recliner, end table, coffee table and his tv console. This facility also has two bedroom apartments and efficiency apartments to choose from on their memory care floor. Plus, the care seems first rate. He never uses any of the kitchen other than to set something on the table since all his meals are provided in the dining room, but loves his recliner, tv, daily newspaper and spends most of his time there in that space. He doesn't join in the activities provided, never was a game-player.
Pamstegma, i am not familiar with the Medicaid Complaint Contract but imagine it must be some document for POA'S to avoid complaints from Medicaid (?). JohnnyJ, in my medium size metro area (think Madison Wisc) the memory care units are more like 10 grand a month. These Memory care units typically are a "studio" apartment sized 600 sf. They do not have full kitchens since memory care patients have lost ability to do kitchen activities safely. There are Assisted Living centers with 2 Bedrooms, near me, but with services such as RX help, light housework, and 2 meals a day, run about 5 grand a month. If there is an additonal person in the 2BR unit it costs additional (mostly for meals but also quite significant cost for RX help). My dad looked at all options, and together with option of living with my family of 5, he chose to live with us, his family, instead of a facility. I think it is hard to talk with people on these forums and really be understood. I will check with my lawyer office next week about the Medicaid Complaint Contract, thar sounds serious. Dad is fine here with us now, but only receives Social Security. No pension. We feel blessed to have him with us for however long. If some reason he needs more care than we can do, we will have to apply Medicaid. So I better check in about the Complaint contract. I dont need any complaints that's for sure!
Pam is absolutely correct. DO NOT EVER COMMINGLE ACCOUNTS with the grantor of the POA. Keep your bank accounts, loans, mortgages separate or you are just asking for legal trouble. You do not become the other person when acting as POA, so don't start suddenly mixing your finances as if you were the other person. There is absolutely no reason to share bank accounts with the grantor of the POA, to cosign a loan or to pay for things out of your own bank account. These are ALL commingling of funds and in some states is illegal. The POA has a fiduciary duty to always act in the best interest of the grantor of the POA. Providing a full accounting to the beneficiaries has no bearing on the commingling of funds, and they are not who you are worried about anyway. If you share a bank account with the POA or a credit card, etc., it doesn't matter what accounting you have done, you are liable because the account is YOURS. I can't think of a worse mistake when acting under the POA then having joint accounts, not only is it illegal in most instances, it opens the door for all kinds of financial liability.
Okay, here's a few questions for thoses who say don't have your name in any accounts. How are you suspose to write checks to pay for the principles expenses? And, if you end up using your own money to pay for somethings- how do you get reimbursed? My moms DPOA document says I may take payment for my duties as her DPOA, who would write me a check? If there is a third party involved to write checks to me - what's the point of me being POA and not them in the first place?
I am JTOWROS on my dad's checking account, but I have my own checking account as well as a joint account with my husband. They all are used by me, for various expenses depending on whose expense it is. I'm dad's poa as well as my husband poa (we aren't unwell, just got it done early rather than be without). Nobody at the bank has any trouble with me being on 3 accounts nor did the lawyers say anything about it being illegal to have a joint account. I havent 'paid' myself for time doing things for dad, but some day if it got to be more significant time and if he wanted to pay me, I don't see how it would matter, who exactly wrote the check, as long as time was documented. Like what if dad needed to go to ER which is 20 mins away and the whole ordeal took 10 hours, in the middle of the night?
I visited about 8 different assisted living /memory care places before I found the one I chose for my friends. It had to be large enough for husband and wife since the wife was lost without her husband near. She had frontal temporal dementia, he short term memory loss. This facility in a St. Paul suburb just took one of the assisted living floors and converted it to memory care, which is why they could offer different sized apartments. They removed the stove from the kitchen, but everything else is there. We furnished it with my friends' own furniture. The wife only lived there about 5 months before passing away. The husband's health is good, just his memory is an issue. I am relieved he is happy there and has made new friends in the dining room. He is content and I don't go into any detail about what I am doing as I go through their condo to get it ready to sell. He is still coherent, but can't remember more than a minute anything he says or is told. The facility is one of the older ones in the area and perhaps that is why their rates seem lower. It looks like a New England inn with white clapboard siding and is situated on the shores of a lake. The man who was in charge of leasing when I was searching for a place was impressed that just a friend would do all this work for his friends and he and I hit it off. He left shortly after my friends got there to have a more flexible schedule to care for his own father with dementia problems. Now he sells real estate and will help me fix up and sell my friend's condo. So before I was anywhere near to thinking about the selling stage, someone came into my life and became a friend just when I needed this. I am in awe of the "coincidences" that have occurred in taking on this role and work for my long-time friends. With no children or close relatives, I am spared all the negative family dynamics I read about on this site and my job seems much easier as a result. It is still a big undertaking, but no bad feelings are there to deal with. To "retire" to lake front accommodations with all the meals provided and with excellent monitoring and care seems like a pretty good "ending" for my intelligent and religious friend.
Vicksky - all above advice is dependant upon where you live & laws pertaining to such - I find keeping bank officials abreast of what's going on plus keeping mom's account in a bank I never used personally however the law here may not be the law where you live as I believe you live in a different country - I find some items here perplexing because that isn't an item we need to deal with here - thanx for opening my eyes - hope you have a good resolution - I found by announcing that the secrecy ended with me being in charge helped - so without any legal need I have kept rest of family abreast of any major changes plus an unofficial report every 12 to 18 months [more than they could legally expect which was =0] has helped to no end - however once I did a report in sept & then was asked for year end to which I said every 12 to 18 months is what you'll get but I have no obligation to do so - In other words don't bug me if it's less than a year - those reports take days to get together & I feel she gets more than she deserves because I don't need to do any of it ... she's backed off but I think that is her husband saying 'shut up or you'll be taken out of loop' which I'll do if she raises issue again - I try to be nice but I will not be dictated to by those who don't have any standing [but wish they did] as you must stay firm with this type of issue
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
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It is also acceptable for the POA to pay himself, but only if he is providing something of value to Mom equal to what he is being paid for. For example, the POA owns an apartment where Mom lives and receives rent from her the same as he would charge any tenant. But he doesn't have the right to deed her house over to him just because he wants it or to clean out her financial accounts without being able to show that the money was used for her benefit or as she wanted.
ALL OF YOU are worthy of notice - unless the assets are small you should get what they used to say 'an honourarium' - don't demean yourself to keep the assets for others to share because they won't acknowledge your worth if you let them run over you ... otherwise just get a tattoo of tire treads on your back to save time... lol
YOU are worthy of your time & effort that you put out for your loved one so don't let anyone tell you otherwise - I find the small amount I get keeps me from the frustration I see many here venting & of feeling I'm being taken for granted - after expenses I get lunch money for twice a week or a bottle of wine a week [we all know how these relaxations help] or 1 massage a month - I'm fine with that because I mentally toast mom on sat. night as I sip that wine
The $7300 figure I used was last month's memory care cost. It goes up and down depending on the number of days in the month. His memory care apartment consists of a small, walk-through kitchen with room enough for a kitchen table and chairs, sink, appliances and cupboards, a decent sized bedroom with adjoining bath and shower and a smaller room with a couch, recliner, end table, coffee table and his tv console. This facility also has two bedroom apartments and efficiency apartments to choose from on their memory care floor. Plus, the care seems first rate. He never uses any of the kitchen other than to set something on the table since all his meals are provided in the dining room, but loves his recliner, tv, daily newspaper and spends most of his time there in that space. He doesn't join in the activities provided, never was a game-player.
The facility is one of the older ones in the area and perhaps that is why their rates seem lower. It looks like a New England inn with white clapboard siding and is situated on the shores of a lake. The man who was in charge of leasing when I was searching for a place was impressed that just a friend would do all this work for his friends and he and I hit it off. He left shortly after my friends got there to have a more flexible schedule to care for his own father with dementia problems. Now he sells real estate and will help me fix up and sell my friend's condo. So before I was anywhere near to thinking about the selling stage, someone came into my life and became a friend just when I needed this. I am in awe of the "coincidences" that have occurred in taking on this role and work for my long-time friends. With no children or close relatives, I am spared all the negative family dynamics I read about on this site and my job seems much easier as a result. It is still a big undertaking, but no bad feelings are there to deal with. To "retire" to lake front accommodations with all the meals provided and with excellent monitoring and care seems like a pretty good "ending" for my intelligent and religious friend.
I find some items here perplexing because that isn't an item we need to deal with here - thanx for opening my eyes - hope you have a good resolution -
I found by announcing that the secrecy ended with me being in charge helped - so without any legal need I have kept rest of family abreast of any major changes plus an unofficial report every 12 to 18 months [more than they could legally expect which was =0] has helped to no end - however once I did a report in sept & then was asked for year end to which I said every 12 to 18 months is what you'll get but I have no obligation to do so -
In other words don't bug me if it's less than a year - those reports take days to get together & I feel she gets more than she deserves because I don't need to do any of it ... she's backed off but I think that is her husband saying 'shut up or you'll be taken out of loop' which I'll do if she raises issue again - I try to be nice but I will not be dictated to by those who don't have any standing [but wish they did] as you must stay firm with this type of issue