Is a diagnosis of dementia ever a legal defense?

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Is a diagnosis of dementia ever a legal defense?

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My mom went out of town about 6 weeks ago, and while she was out of town she got a DUI. Nobody got hurt, she only drove a couple blocks, but she hit a car she didn't see (minor damage), and when she didn't stop the other driver called the cops. This resulted in a DUI. She also refused the mandatory blood test, so her license is to be suspended in two weeks because of that for a minimum of a year.

Some of you may recall the ongoing nightmare I have been through with my mom and her driving. I was literally left with no choice but to wait for a crisis. Well, here we are.

My mom is coming back home Friday. As of now, she hasn't given me permission to talk to her lawyer, but she did give my brother permission, and my brother informed the lawyer that she has dementia.

It's too early to know what kind of penalty she will receive. She is fully aware that in two weeks she will no longer have a license, and she told me she will comply (she has no choice as this will be a criminal suspension).

Anyone else ever deal with something like this?

Alzheimer's & Dementia Driving Mom

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Wow no, sorry your going through this. What a nightmare. Id remove the distributor cap so car no longer works. Or hide keys and say she misplaced them if she asks. Say car died due to the crash. And don't have the money to fix it because that money is going to the lawyer and court costs and you have to sell it to pay for everything. Good thing the crash wasn't worse. That is just awful. Someone needs to step in. Should have before the accident. There are many ways to get around having the car disabled, without having a huge fight about it, and being the bad guy.

Im glad someone is talking to the lawyer. I would have even if she had said no one is allowed. Id find out if the family can be held responsible for not taking the keys sooner, just to be sure.
Gold luck. If that car is around, that will be a temptation again. She might forget she's not allowed to drive, and try it again. Id make sure she cant! It is more important than hurting her feelings, lives are at stake!!

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My deepest sympathy, to you and Mom. It's darn hard to hand over that on upe piece of paper that gave you a sense of freedom like no other. It's depressing, to say the least. I went through this with my Mother - countless DUI'S, time in the "drunk tank", - it was humilating, for her and me. She finally faced the fact that she could kill herself, or someone else. So, I called all the family together, we all agreed - we had a "bonfire" party, to burn her license. She had the honor of throwing them into the fire, therefore, voluntary giveup. I am, at 72 years old, having to give mine up, because I'm going blind. I love to drive, clears my head to feel the wind blowing through it. I'm also a speed freak, faster the better. I know in my soul that I need to do this now - but I'm finding it impossible to "just hand them over." Two way street here - they expire in 2022 - should I just let that happen, or quit driving now? If they expire, I will always have a "license" in my pocket. The only place I drive now is up and down my driveway - but that sense of freedom is there. What would you do? Hard decision to make, so put yourself in the shoes of someone who's facing this. And be honest about it...

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Freedom??? Spent years commuting to work and home in the Los Angeles rush hour. NOT my idea of freedom!! So now trains are available - but I'm retired. That's my idea of freedom - being chauffered while I read, nap, converse with others.. And the wind blowing through your hair?? how does that work when crawling at 5 mph?

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if you knew she has dementia you should have contacted her Dr and he would have written to have her license taken away. She cannot help her disease but someone needs to be appointed guardian of her before she hurts herself or someone else. She should never have had access to her car . My husband is also been cursed with Dementia. I had to take responsibility for him to protect everyone. If she won’t agree then go to court and they will take care of it . Sorry this happened

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The OP has notified the dr and the DMV. Her mother lost her license in one state already ;)

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With regard to covering the car in lieu of selling it, the illness will eventually keep her from remembering that she has had an accident at all. Since your POA if assume you can sell it without her agreement? if necessary tell her it's in storage.

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POA doesn’t allow her to sell the car without her mother’s agreement. Her mother hasn’t been declared mentally incompetent.

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Piper,

I don’t know the answer. I know that you have tried everything humanly possible to get your mom on track.

I wish that you could get off this crazy emotional roller coaster ride that you have been on.

Sending hugs and prayers your way.

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For what it is worth, Hubby's doctor told him if he ever hurt someone in a crash and they sued; they would probably Subpoena his medical records. He has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. They would win and take everything we have because we knew he was impaired. So, I guess the answer is, has she been diagnosed?

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If she has dementia, it is YOUR responsibility to do something before your mother kills someone.

* Get MD documentation of her mental state [or does you have this already?]
* Write / discuss with DMV.
* Take car keys away; if necessary, find out how you can get rid of her car.
* My (past) client called the police on her son because he took her keys away or something. Her son had to call police and tell them that his mother has dementia and that she drives w/o a license. (Her car engine was taken apart and eventually / soon, the car was sold). His mother was more than livid.

* Other peoples lives at are risk here. While I don't know details, waiting until there was an accident is not being responsible.

* Many people deal with dementia inflicted drivers - either their own family or on the other end (other drivers or people walking in the streets). Not having a license is no guarantee a person won't drive.

* Research TEEPA SNOW. She is one of th country's experts on dementia and has several webinars about [how to deal with] people with dementia and driving. As she says, there are many people out there driving with dementia. Makes one wonder.

* My friend, now 87, got his license suspended almost two years ago. He has an upcoming driving test (written) and may or may not take a driving test. While I doubt he will pass either test, if he does, I will see what I can do to insure he is not allowed to legally drive. As Teepa says, make someone else 'the bad guy' - don't put yourself in that position with your mom. Although I would change her keys or do something so she cannot drive until something more permanent is in place.

* Even if you are seen as the 'bad guy', you could be saving someone's life.

* Your post actually got me to thinking about my friend - and my responsibility in his situation - driving with others on the road. He drives too slow, not too fast. Still. Unsafe driving is unsafe driving. Thank you.

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Trust me, the OP has done everything possible to keep her mother from driving. She lost her license in Florida but was able to get one in another state. This is another situation of a demented person still having “rights” and you cannot force them to move into care or sometimes to stay off the road. I think we all dont realize how many people are on the roads every day that dont have a license or insurance....its a very scary thought..,

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I simply took my mom's keys and her spare key away from her. She was mad as a wet hen!! It helped to say that her grandchildren all insisted that she shouldn't be driving anymore so that took the heat off of me and she quit raging about it.

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Yeah. Let them rage. Better than killing themselves and/or others.

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I faces a similar problem with my 80 year old husband. He was showing early signs of occasional confusion, some memory challenges and other signs of decline. But he was furiously defensive of being in A-1 condition and perfectly capable of driving!!! I couldn’t live with the thought he might kill someone’s child, or parent. So I went to the driveway and emptied one tire on his very old car of air after taking his AAA card from his wallet. He went out to drive several days later, and came in frustrated about the tire. He looked for his AAA card and was frustrated when he couldn’t find it. Decided to take a nap. Same thing a day or so later. When I wasn’t sure I was going to get away with it I opened the hood and disconnected “something”. I don’t even know what it was. Days later he said he was going to drive on one empty tire to the gas station to get it fixed. Car wouldn’t start!!! Came in for another nap! Several months later I contacted the police and they helped me “junk” the car without his signature on the title. He never asked about his car again. I call them “fib let’s”. Tiny white lies that protect the rights and lives of others from someone who can no longer make responsible decisions.

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Many thanks. This is often what is needed.
Perfect. Others here will benefit greatly from reading your words / experience.

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Imho, your mother should have never been behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. Disable the auto by any means possible.

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I know you are worried for your mother, but I can't help but think of the people she might kill as an impaired driver. Write a letter to the judge begging him or her to stop your mom from driving forever. She will either kill herself and/or some innocent family. It's a bad situation, for sure, but she simply must not be allowed to drive any more.

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I don't know what state you're in. You also mentioned that you notified the police but they could do nothing. I would call your Dep't. of Motor Vehicles and report to them that she has dementia. They are in a position to do something or to tell you what to do.

Secondly, can you or your brother remove the battery, for example, so that the car will not start? My brother-in-law did this to his mom's car. Or, if not the battery, disable something so that it will not start.

I thought you, or someone else, said this was her second DUI? If so, it will show up on her record and the court will not go so easily on her.

Who is prosecuting this case? If it's the DA's office, contact them and talk to them privately. Ask them not to use your name. If they can't do this, then send an anonymous note to or leave a voice mail message for the named prosecuting attorney handling this case, advising them of her dementia and that this is her second DUI.

Report this to her auto insurance carrier.

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As I mentioned earlier, this has been an ongoing issue for the OP and she has done everything she can to not let her mother drive.

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I would disable the car and put a very large note under the hood to inform anyone that comes to repair it that - 1) she no longer has a license and 2) she has dementia and can no longer drive - DO NOT REPAIR THIS CAR.

It's really out of your hands as to how her legal team (since you are excluded from that process) will handle her case. Hopefully she had insurance on her car to cover the damages, or that may be part of her restitution.

Let the brother handle it and disable the car while it's at your house. Upwon her return to your house, I'd ask for the keys to drive home the point of no driving.

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Take the keys. Move the car to another location or sell it. Before she kills someone and whatever she has the court will take for restitution. Doesnt matter that she is not responsible - that is the reason you have to take the keys and car now. Notify DMV and court she is disabled. Tell her the court ordered it or whatever (Im sure it is hard but there is no better alternative)

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Now is the time to get input from her doctor. Have her lawyer contact the doctor for written statement. You cannot get in trouble for her driving dementia or not because she is an adult. Only dmv can stop someone from driving legally.
My dad refused to stop driving until his license was legally taken. Because he is convinced he is going back to court soon to get his license back and his incompetency overturned, though he still complains, he does not drive.
Of course they will never give him a license again and it has now been 2.5 years and he has not tried to drive since the day of his suspension.
Let her believe she will get it back as long as she does not drive while it is suspended. I pray it works for u. I'm still shocked honestly that it works for my dad who is adamant he is going back to court soon. He does not have a God concept of time as he cannot tell u how long it has been since his license was taken.
I take him where he wants and/or needs to go.🙏🏾💜

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It would probably also be helpful if the OP provides evidence that an attempt had been made on a previous occasion to get the doctor to contact the authorities to have the mother's license revoked.

Getting rid of the car soon could be further justified by point out that it would depreciate if just sitting around, so selling it now would get the most money.

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Regardless of how this turns out you are mistaken if you think a diagnosis of Alzheimer's, or taking away her license, will prevent her from driving. You have confirmation she no longer is capable of driving safely. It is no longer her decision. Disable the car or remove it to a place she cannot find it. Save her life and the lives of innocent others.

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My guess if you pleaded dementia you'd be in a bigger legal mess. Like, if you knew she had dementia why did you let her drive? Now you are in the legal quagmire too.
Just engineer a settlement where the court tells her to give up her license due to a recent medical test. You are not the bad guy and case is solved.
By the way, I am not a lawyer but I think this is the way Perry Mason would handle it.

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lol:)

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The best person to ask these questions is her lawyer. I know you said she didn’t give you permission to talk to him, perhaps your brother can take a list of your questions and find out the answers. That said my experience with family members who have gotten a DUI is that there is usually a large fine, a required class for alcohol safety and a years suspension of your license. She probably also has a hit and run charge and I’m not sure what is done for those. Since she has dementia the judge may elect to just revoke her driving privileges for all time along with fines. My nieces MIL had an accident that fortunately didn’t involve any major injuries and given that she had an impeccable driving record the judge did just revoke her license and lots of fines. I can’t say what her insurance company paid out.

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I am NOT a lawyer, but common sense tells me that "dementia" does not always mean "Alzheimer's disease" and even with that during that course she can fully understand what she is doing, especially still being able to drive represents earlier stages of it. DUI can also mean she could have killed some one like a child, or bicyclist.
Let the law take its course and expect the Court to permanently revoke her driver's license. She will probably have to pay heavy fines and even alcohol program at her expense, but it is better than killing some child or other innocent bystander. You may want to organize her seeing a psychiatrist to get a competency hearing and establish power of attorney or court appointed legal guardian. The court may order that...if not get her to see a psychiatrist to get that competency hearing if DPOA is not established.

DO NOT LET HER DRIVE--take away her keys if necessary, and confiscate the car.

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Whom ever has POA over your mom could be held liable as well. Knowing that she is in cognitive decline already pose a hazard to others and herself without drinking. Whether you and your brother are on good terms or not push for a permanent removal of license. No ifs ands or buts. Even if you cannot talk to the attorney if it is a truly desperate situation and not about control just call the attorneys office and leave a message about permanent license removal

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I read through some of the responses .. If she has been diagnosed with dementia and her keys have been taken away, it might not be enough . The car might after it disappear, too ... I have read in others places about there being others keys in others places. I have been doing all the driving since before the pandemic because of the 4 hour drive my husbands had trying to find his way home . We recently sold the second car to a dealership . He still thinks he can drive but my feeling is if he can no longer handle the TV remote, he can no longer drive. There are comments during every car or truck commercial that comes on TV about the one that he wants and my response is always “ When your a little more stable on your feet, we will look for another vehicle.” HE does have PT coming in 2x a week and health care in one day a week. They gives me a little break and they no longer have to park on the street ..,

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Why defend her? You can let the Department of Motor Vehicles help you take away your mother's license. Isn't this what you wanted? I hope all of her paperwork was in order (POA, will, etc.) before your brother told her attorney that she has dementia.

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It is good to hear from you ExhaustedPiper. Not the reason though. Thank God that nobody was injured.

I think that hiring a companion is a great solution for your situation. I also recommend putting boundaries on your time, just so she doesn't run you ragged with needing to go, go, go.

If she doesn't have one, now is a good time to introduce a grocery list keeper. I use a magnet, pencil on a string and a pad on my fridge, tear and go. This can help keep the items in stock that create a trip to the grocery.

You have done so much for your mom and she has bruised and battered you for all of your caring. Please do not let her or your precious heart make you pay for the consequences of her choices. Keep your boundaries and walk away, hang up or leave if she starts in on you. You matter just as much as her and you DO NOT deserve to be her scratching post.

Stay strong and resolved! Best of luck finding a good companion that makes this new season in your journey the best yet. Great big warm hug!

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Thank you so much ITR. My mom and I have made progress with boundaries. Lord knows it was not easy, and I have to stay on guard, but still so much better than where I was the first time I posted on this board. I give this group so much credit for helping me assert myself. Amazing people here.

Big hug back to you.

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Piper
I knew a woman (aunt of a friend) who had a paid friend. She hired the friend herself. She didn’t have dementia. Her daughter lived next door and took her to her doctor appointments and to church. This aunt had mobility problems. Her friend came a few times a week. They went to the hairdressers or shopping. Went to DQ. Watched tv together. Took rides. Whatever they decided. When she went into a NH, the friend would visit, bring her outfits from home. Play bingo with her. The paid friend was a few years younger and very cute, dressed nice and made the aunts life more fun. She also had a boyfriend who would come drink coffee with her. He developed Alzheimer’s and went to the NH years before Aunt died. I admired how she managed her life.
Might be hard to find just the right person but they are out there.

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Thanks for sharing the story about your friend's aunt. It seems she really did manage her life well! What you described is exactly what I want for my mom. This will be a work in progress as I brainstorm, but I appreciate knowing it can be done.

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Boy, oh boy, I wrote that badly. 😕 You have the opportunity to get mom a diagnosis that will insure she will not drive again. Sounds like early stages but she is a danger to herself and others.

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No worries, it's fine. Believe me in the last couple years I have had to learn just what I can and can not do. Initially I was overwhelmed trying to figure out what was mine to own, and what wasn't.

She already is diagnosed, that happened about 2 years ago. Her driving saga has been quite the ordeal as evidenced by my many posts on the whole thing, ending with her getting a DUI at age 75! But we are at the end of that. She won't drive again, and we have the keys.

Honestly I understand the intense opinions on dementia and driving. I too feel strongly about it and have vented about it numerous times. It's unfortunate it took a DUI to get her off the road, but this also brings relief.

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I do hope someone (atty, you, brother) can mention to the judge that mom has dementia. If you still have the FL documents (doc, DMV), bring them along! It would be better if the decision to suspend her license was changed to revoked. At least for a while, this will keep her from thinking she can drive again. Make copies and show/hand them to her if she brings up driving again.

As for how your mom will get around - certainly you can offer to take her to the store for groceries and other supplies, and various other locations (appts, etc.) She may want to be able to venture out on her own, so you might need some alternatives.

I know some suggested Uber, Lyft, senior buses, etc, but when dealing with dementia, these options might not work well, or for long. Just as many dementia drivers have gotten "lost", ending up many miles from home and with no clue how to get back, the same can happen when using these kind of transport systems. There might be some who figure out they can take advantage of her, if they detect she's not playing with a full deck. I'm sure most drivers are legit, but it only takes one.

I liked your idea of hiring someone who can be her "driver", but also be a companion who can watch over her in your staid. It would be great to have her get used to this now, and then as needed you can increase the time/activities of this aide. You might have to shop around a bit to find an agency that offers this (maybe easier in FL?) The agency we used would not allow the aides to drive mom anywhere (liability likely), but they could run errands for her, for instance picking up milk and juice when mom ran low or out of these between my visits.

As her dementia progresses, she is going to forget about the revoked license, and that she sold her "camp." Be prepared for making excuses (if you tell her the truth, she may not believe you or argue with you or accuse you of stealing it!)

Hopefully things will go smoothly for you. One would hope that the courts would allow you to "present" yourselves remotely rather than forcing you to drive all the way there AND expose both yourself and her to the virus. Even better, perhaps the atty can just be there in your staid and maybe get the charges down a bit, a fine, restitution, and revoking the license... Wouldn't hurt to ask - it isn't like any of you are going to dispute the charges.

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Thank you DT, your answers here have been helpful.

Real quick on the driving- my DH has the keys as we got them before she took her trip to PA. We plan to keep them, and for now she is not putting up any kind of fight. She has this little glimmer of hope that at the end of her suspension she can go to the medical evaluation driving place in Florida and legally get her license back. No way is that ever going to happen, but rather than torment her with the finality of it now -I'm hoping she just forgets about it over the next 12-18 months.

I'm glad you support the idea of hiring a companion. I've been thinking about this a lot. Still brainstorming, but if I could find the right situation it would help so much.

It's going to be a couple months before she hears anything from the court. I plan to talk to the lawyer sometime next week, but yes, I'm really hoping she will not have to make another trip in person. If she does it will be a short trip and she won't be going alone.

Thanks again!

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"I'm not looking forward to being her driver but I will do it. My mom can be really difficult and demanding, so how she takes to getting used to things will depend a lot on her. In the last couple years I've had to work hard to maintain boundaries and we've made progress. "

And she lives in a condo right next door to her? You are going to have to work really really hard to maintain boundaries!

Be very careful with the driving....I was my mother's driver (I called myself the "Dummy Daughter Driver" because she thought I was stupid). I set strict boundaries for hauling her places -- to Mass for Sundays and Holy Days, one a week grocery shopping (combined with chair yoga at the rec center while I swam laps), and medical appointments. Before she gave up driving, she went out most every day. She could no longer walk at the mall. Any time I took her anywhere, it took HOURS. She wouldn't let me do her grocery shopping for her (if she did, I would have taken her to the mall once a week to walk with the people she knew). She didn't have a smartphone, and wouldn't have been able to manage Uber or Lyft. She refused to take the city handiride.

She wasn't happy with the boundaries, but in time she came to accept them.

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Mom had a DUI before this one. Is She an alcoholic? I would be looking into detox and rehab for her and if already lined up may serve as mom's sentence.

You are making excuses for not selling mom's car now. She isn't ready yet? Makes no matter, if it is available she will drive it. Next time she may not be so lucky as to not hurt someone or herself. You are POA and it is your responsibility to keep mom and others safe by taking care of the car situation. If mom says she is willing to stop driving, tomorrow she may not remember she said that. Then what?

Sorry if this seems harsh, but the time has come for you to take more responsibility for mom.

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In what way should I be taking "more responsibility"??

My mom has dementia, but she has not been deemed incompetent to make decisions by any doctor, yet, so what do you think I can force just because I have a POA?

My mom's car is in her name, and I have no legal right to sell it without her permission. Not sure why you are saying I'm making excuses. It's not my decision. Again, my mom has not been deemed incompetent, she still has rights.

Same for any detox or rehab. I'm not responsible for my mother's addictions. I can only control my behavior, and I do not enable her. If a doctor recommends it and she agrees then I'll help facilitate it, but that is it. It's possible that the court will order it, and if they do she will have to comply. Again, this is not MY responsibility.

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I should look on the bright side.

Your mother's licence will be taken away. She has been thoroughly shaken and (believe this when you see it, but let's hope anyway) she has agreed to comply. And nobody got hurt.

I'd call that a very fortunate outcome, all round. I suppose it's possible that the court *could* try to make an example of her, but if she is meek and remorseful I can't imagine why they would.

Do NOT give her a hard time about this. Save your breath for when she gets over the shock and decides she'll be fine if she only goes out in daylight and it's not too far...

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The courts can’t and won’t make an example out of her. Even if she didn’t have dementia, she probably wouldn’t be sentenced to jail over this because of COVID. In this country, you typically lose your license for 1 year minimum and have to pay thousands of dollars in fines (and legal fees). Our DUI laws are too lax in this country.

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To answer the original question, dementia certainly won’t be a defense to a DUI charge. Insanity as a defense to criminal action doesn’t let you go free anyway, it puts you into a different sort of detention. A ‘diminished responsibility’ plea (if there is such a thing) is even more complicated. Dementia with lots of regrets, remorse, apologies, promises, concrete plans etc, would probably mean that M would be treated lightly. Best to let the lawyer argue it, especially if M is not necessarily prepared to grovel apologetically.

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“grovel apologetically”.... it IS skill, isn’t it.

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Is a diagnosis of dementia ever a legal defense?

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