Bills are paid automatically, so we don't know where the money ($1000-1500/mo) is going. Mom has dementia, FIL is right behind her, beginning stages. My husband has financial POA but Elder Care attorney says that without going to court for conservatorship, we can't control their spending. How is this going to affect the spend down when she needs Medicaid? She is 91, he is 89. He may be sending cash in mail to various "charities" and for supplements such as "stem cells" which are totally take but we can't convince him to stop.
I take cash out every 2 weeks for my husband & I for various expenses. And all our bills are on auto-pay as well — those bills that can be. Am sharing this because it could be innocent.
It's an uphill battle to get a court to give you guardianship. That takes away ALL their rights, including voting, receiving mail, money from any source, etc. The guardian must approve (and order) everything, even medical care. I don't know about conservatorship. That may be different.
Questions to be answered:
If all their bills are paid automatically from their checking account, does their account hold enough to cover rising costs, so they withdraw from savings to cover them? (My own monthly costs have gone up $200/month over the last year. SSI went up $45.)
Have they had enough in checking to cover unusual yearly expenses, such as taxes, medical costs or prescriptions not covered by Medicare, auto repairs, an updated wardrobe?
Have they contracted for an expense, such as a newer vehicle, a stairlift to a second floor, uncovered medical equipment?
You can ask these questions in a way that preserves their dignity and their rights to spend their money until they are completely incompetent..
Or are they spending down so they will qualify for Medicaid when the time comes? After all, they are in their 90s.
I had a guy call me one time demanding my soc security #. I just laughed and he got angrier and threatening. So can you imagine an elderly person getting scared. Sad.
We just took my dads away. He didnt know. Gave him a few bucks to spend at pharmacy.
Your FIL is not actually your hubs father but is a step-father, right?
& hubs mom is actually few years older & worse off than FiL, right?
Could it be the case that FILs kids will not be supportive of his paying or using “his $$$” for moms care for the day when she needs to go into a facility? What’s your heart 2 heart take on all this?
I’ve been on this site for quite a while and it’s a rare situation where the kids from prior marriages view the 2nd or 3rd spouse as a tru partner to their parent. What seems to happen is prior marriage kids give lip service in “we just oh so love MeeMaw” but will cut her out of a penny if they can. Would this describe any of his kids or better yet.... their spouses?
If you think this might be lurking, please please get your hubs to find a new attorney (I’d go CELA level) to discuss if best conservatorship or guardianship for his mom and let them come up with options as to how to deal with her future LTC Medicaid application. LTC Medicaid for when there is the NH spouse (his mom) & staying in the community spouse (FIL would be a CS) is just imho not a simple or straightforward process. It’s pretty daunting and each state has its own unique system. There’s going to be a separation of each of their incomes but it’s joint on all assets but how to do best for Medicaid varies. Plus the CS is going to do some sort of CSRA or MMNA (these are resource allowances - kinda like old school style alimony), & yeah this too varies by state. If you live in another state and his kids will likely be 1 sided when it comes to $ & assets, you & hubs will just have to get an attorney to represent your hubs moms interests.
At 91 & w/dementia, his mom is not going to get any better.
At 89, getting cash withdrawals & not recognizing if it’s $5 or $50, your FIL is going to be fleeced.
There’s going to be a fall or fire or other situation that places 1 needing a facility immediately. Hubs needs to get pit-bullie proactive for both his moms & his FIL health, safety & security. And that means getting a new attorney & soon. It’s not a DIY. We can share with you insight on our own experiences, but you need a new attorney to do what’s needed & soon. Good luck.
There is a 5 year look back period and large sums, like you state, are going to have to be explained. Giving away money/assets will cause them to be penalized when it is time for Medicaid to pay for a nursing home bed or other assistance. They may not even realize they are creating a future problem.
I say, go ask them about it and tell them you want to make sure they are not getting scammed or taken advantage of by someone. If one of them gets mad about you asking how their money is spent, try to explain they will not be able to get help when they need it if they give the money away. If they have used it for repairs on house/car etc, tell them you need to help them create a file for big expenses to document for Medicaid later on.
If all you get is an argument, it might be time to seek conservatorship before they create a problem that cannot be undone later on.
These people can't tell the difference between a $5 bill and $50 and you think all is good and they are just saving up for a cruise?
Something about this whole issue smells...
If you have to get conservatorship do it! You've got to stop the money flow now!
Id start monitoring them more closely. Do you live close by? Get their phone shut off. My dad was getting calls from Jamaica. A guy was pretending to be his friend. Trying to get $ sent to him. Mom turned the phone volume down so he wouldnt hear it ring. If you visit daily, they dont need a phone. Surprise visit so maybe you will catch someone there? Unplug phone or have it shut off. Altho someone needs to make sure they are alright.
My dad also started sending away for everything in the mail. You can get on a no more junk mail list to cut that down. Maybe get the Mail sent to you? We put my parents name on that so it helped some.
Put up a camera so you can see if anyone goes to their door. Who knows if someone is soliciting them for money. Pretending to do work for them, or be their friend visiting.
Change out the checking account register/checks for a fake one. They wont know and can write checks forever, and there is no real account. Might be easier than saying your taking it. Switch it out. Take their check book, but dont let them see. As soon as you do that there will be a huge fight.
You have to get that money flow to stop and get to the bottom of it.
My mom had to take the checkbook from my dad. She said he had lost the checks. That way he wasnt mad at her. He looked but didnt spend hrs searching.
You have got to stop that now. Good luck. How awful.
He has been " involved" and IS trying to "control" this issue, but is being told by EC attorney "...without going to court for conservatorship, we can't control their spending." I don't think his intent is to prevent them from spending anything, just trying to stop the waterfall flow of money that is unaccounted for!
My question in this is WHY would anyone spend the time/money to get POAs in place if they are not worth the paper they are printed on? He should be able to divert the bulk of their money to a safe place in their names (mom&pop) at the bank, or get a trust set up. They could then be allowed a set amount for "spending" from their regular monthly income or assets. Everyone should be allowed the dignity to choose how to spend their money, but would you allow a 5 yo to have access to a lot of money, with no oversight? Same idea here, and same result - blow through it all and have nothing to show for it (or any paper trail.)
I would also like to see the proof in your statement "...you can't get most elder law attorney's to agree to conservatorship." Their own attorney suggested going to court for just this purpose. This is something they do. When our mother was refusing to consider moving ANYWHERE, our EC atty told us we could not force her to move and suggested guardianship!! We did NOT go that route, as the facility we chose for her would not accept committals.
Remember, these two elders have dementia. The whole point to appointing a POA is to have someone responsible who can manage your affairs when you are no longer capable of doing so. These people are not capable of managing anything. I still don't understand how the attorney states the OP can't intervene somehow. If not, what is the point of having the POA, other than to line the atty's pocket for that and then court too. Also, why would the bank want to block him (some banks don't honor POAs, but they ARE legal documents and they should honored.) At the least, the bank staff can SEE what the two are doing, and should question it. Someone could be bilking the money out of them and they should report suspicions to APS! In another thread, a bank did this because grandma agreed to loan g'daughter money and mom, the POA, processed it - they are being investigated for defrauding grandma! Yet it is okay for these two to withdraw 1000-1500 a month and no one blinks an eye???
There is NO paper trail for any of this money and THAT can become a problem if Medicaid is needed. There would be NO proof that this money isn't being handed to their children.
Keep a stockpile of “openers” in your head - to get Mom & Dad to open up about who they see and who they interact with.
Who bought the Jones’ house at the end of the street? Who do you trust to service your car, now that Bob’s Garage is closed? Is XXX’s niece still a cashier at Walmart? Muse that you see (or don’t see) a lot of families with young kids in your parents’ neighborhood now. Ask your parents who cleans their gutters, who mows their lawn, etc (act like you want a recommendation for someone).
Every time you see Mom & Dad, make sure that some aspect of your conversation spurs them to reveal something about their little world.
If Mom or Dad mentions a “nice single mom” or “fella who’s down on his luck,” pay special attention.
Really to paraphrase, “it takes a village to keep an elder in their home”. And you just must to try to know to some degree who all are part of your folks village. Especially important if you do not actually live in the same city (or state!). If that means you get onto the Next Door app or you join their neighbor association, you do it; and you actually go with them to their weekly lunch/ dinner/ novena/shabbat when you come in to visit them.
My sister an I are more worried about fraud and her being swindled out of large sums of money than her having 100 rolls of toilet paper on hand, a dresser full of supplements and some cash hidden in her bottom drawer. She understands the need for us to know the location.
First, get ur inlaws evaluated. If they are found incompetent, than ur husband can take over. As POA the siblings really have no say. He can keep them in the loop but parents assigned him. You can then take their checkbook out of the house. My uncle was able to put him down as the only signer on my Gma's account. (Family member was forging checks) Maybe DH can do something like that.
Conservatorship may cost money. I think Medicaid allows the use of ur parents money to set it up. Check with ur lawyer.
The second issue is that they don't use checks. All payments OP has set up and parents stopped using checks. They are withdrawing these large sums of money, therefore there will be no paper trail and no way to prove how it was spent or if it was given to the children - big issue if Medicaid is ever needed!
Agree that if OP is the only DPOA, siblings input/complaints are moot, however, they could, if they were wise enough, apply for guardianship themselves, which would override the DPOA. This would have to be contested if OP feels they are not qualified or suspects they might abuse this duty (one wants to move "closer" and get paid to care for the parents... iffy...) If anyone contests (parents can too), it will take longer and cost a LOT more as everyone gets their own atty, and generally the funds are paid from the parents' assets (if they are denied guardianship, they'd likely have to pay for their own atty, but I can't say for sure how all that works!)
If there is no way to determine where this money is going AND the bank/EC atty keeps blocking OP from doing his DPOA job, it might be best to suck it up and file for guardianship.
The sibling issue is the bigger problem, and maybe the only way would be guardianship. This could become a nightmare, both for time and expense, esp if parents or siblings contest it. If there is any way around this, it would be better!
"Elder Care attorney says that without going to court for conservatorship, we can't control their spending."
The "expert" who chimed in seemed to back up your attorney's statements. I am confused about this though. DPOA becomes "effective" the minute it's signed and gives one the authority to make financial decisions. Curbing spending maybe isn't part of that, but restricting access to funds could stop the drain. With DPOA you should be able to move the funds to a "safe" place, without taking the money to your account, in their own acct or trust.
When my mother was making mistakes (no excess spending, just mistakes), I stepped in and took over. We had DPOA and she added me and YB to her CU acct long before this. However, she had opened an acct in a closer bank, and had SS deposited there, for easier access to cash when she wanted/needed it. I was NOT on the acct and did no business with them, so they didn't know me. I had SS redirected to the CU acct and once verified, I took her to the bank with DPOA and withdrew all the funds via check and closed the acct, then deposit it in her CU acct. She did/said nothing other than rifle through her wallet/purse, both at CU and bank. I have read others' say banks refused to honor POAs, but in our case I got no flak. Meanwhile we had the EC atty revise/update so we could protect her home and assets (trusts.) As her CDs matured, I transferred the funds to my acct and then deposited these into the trust acct (EC said this was okay as I was "disabled." Bank/CU didn't know that! Not sure how that works, but...) No one ever gave me grief.
I had to sign up as SS rep payee, to change the address for paperwork (can't forward federal mail and federal entities DON'T honor any POAs.) It was worse getting to be her rep for the pension as it is federal, but eventually the right words were written up by the doc - funds still go to the primary acct, but I manage it all from there and can work with pension people for changes.
IF they have excess funds (savings, etc.), can you not move those to a sub-acct or lock them into CDs? DPOA should allow that. See EC atty and set up a trust for these funds? Their regular income will have to be addressed differently. You could try the SS route (call local office, not the 800#, unless you enjoy being on hold!) for their SS income. If approved, it goes to you as rep payee and each has a special acct only you can access. It requires yearly reporting, but can be done online (keep good receipts/accounting.) Other income would have to be taken care of as well, leaving them "enough" to have money for "extras", but not enough to blow on these probable scams or carry around with them.
Curious to know if you can figure out who their "contact" is for the silver - hopefully not one of the resistant siblings...
If all else fails, then guardianship will be the answer. If they continue to blow through their savings/income, with no legit paper trail, it could prevent them getting Medicaid, if/when they might need it!
I would meet with the EC atty (or another, might get free initial consult) and discuss the issues and what can/can't be done. Having more or less taken over their acct(s), I don't understand why it's so hard to move assets to a sub-acct or CD to prevent access. A trust set up (you and another trusted person as trustees) would be best and less expensive and time-consuming than going to court (consider house trust as well.) If you can get approval to be rep for any pensions, redirect enough of the funds to another sub-acct for them, leaving them "spending" money, and protect the rest.
Hope you find the simplest solution!
You mentioned church. Do you think they are donating to the church? Some churches ask for lots of money.
Folks who are competent can make their own stupid decisions. That does not, however, obligate their children to rescue them from their poor decisions after the fact.
If the current laws permit elders to be taken advantage of financially, I don't see how the government [aka Medicaid] can then deny funding for care just because they've lost money to swindlers.