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When my MIL divided her money I was opposed to her doing it. When I realized it was a lost cause trying to talk her out of it I warned my bil NOT to touch it. I knew this would happen. Three years later he says it's gone. Frivolous spending will do that! My husband and I put it in a seperate account and didn't touch it. My MIL is 89 and not in the best of health. She has no other assets except for her monthly check and a burial fund (I hope). I'm sick to my stomach after hearing what he did and now on top of that I'm worried ... What if she needs long term care? All I know is we have our half of the money but they don't have theirs. Has anyone dealt with something similar who can shed light on this situation? Two years is a very long time to hold your breath and that's what I feel I'm going to be doing now!

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You were right to do what you did. But it will effect if Mom needs Medicaid. There will be a penalty for BILs share.

TG, like you, my SIL was smart. She was able to sell her Moms house for a very good price. She is POA. First thing her sister asked was how much was she getting. Really! Her Mom definitely is looking at an AL soon. She is 77. She could go thru that money in 2 yrs of an AL So Medicaid is in her future.
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When an elder gives me something, I always assume they will need it back later so I never treat it as my own. I started working as a candy-striper in a nursing home when I was a child so I've seen what happens when family, elders and money get blended up together in the final days of someone's life. Most of the time it's not pleasant. I have also experienced it first hand while caring for dying relatives. When money changes hands, if it is above a certain limit in a year, there are tax consequences for the person who gives the money away and sometimes for the person who receives the monetary gift. You can look that up at IRS.gov, speak to an attorney, or both. If she needs long term care paid for by the government and the money transfer is part of the five year look back period you may be "asked" to give it back. I think it was very wise for you to set the money aside. She may need it, medicare may want it, and, sadly to say, the other sibling will likely want it when she dies if it hasn't already been used for her care. If you need to use any of it for her care I would suggest that you make sure you leave a clear paper trail, keep receipts etc. Basically, prepare your case for the judge and if the need arises, you will have it taken care of, and if not, you will have a nice legacy of her love after she passes.
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Your question seems to be a legal one about Medicaid. If her gift to BIL is caught by the look-back period, but there is no money there, is she precluded from getting Medicaid. Could you ask Medicaid? No-one here seems to have an answer (except that BIL shouldn't have done it), but Medicaid must have had this happen before. Asking is healthier than holding your breath!
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worriedinCali Oct 2018
If she needs Medicaid in the next 2 years, she’ll be penalized because it’s within the 5 year look back period.
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If the money gifted falls within the Medicaid lookback period then their would be a penalty period in which Medicaid would not pay.  Family would have to cover those costs - I'm not sure if they would have to pay for a nursing home, or if they could care for MIL at home until the penalty period was over and she could go into a nursing facility.  You were wise to hold onto the money, but I'm not sure if you can compel brother who spent his share to pony up for cost of care until the penalty is over. Morally he is obliged, but legally?? The person to talk to about this is igloo, who often posts on this site.  I believe in most states lookback is 5 years, but it is probably going up.
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Pegshere Oct 2018
Right now she's living with him and that's because my husband isn't someone to pitch in so all care would be on me. I wasn't willing to take that responsibility. So when she gave up living independently I just stepped back and let it move in their direction rather than mine. Before she lived with them it was a month here a month there but with bad knees that was no longer an option. She's been in fair health until recently. She started hallucinating, calling for her deceased husband, having terrible night trauma and getting very weak. I kept telling them to get her checked for a UTI. Finally they did after 2 weeks but before the lab could get the results back she got worse. They took her by ambulance to the hospital and guess what ... UTI big time! Meanwhile I'm telling you bil told my husband he was praying and not for her to get better! Then once in the hospital he starts telling my husband how he can't take care of her anymore and they need to look for a home! Two days later she's 75% herself again still getting better and they are putting her in rehab for 10 - 20 days for her knee issues and to build her up. I am disgusted with my bill's thoughts and realize that he's not as WONDERFUL a caretaker as he claims to be when blowing his horn for all that will listen! I just don't want to be stuck for his stupidity! I knew she was wrong to divide her money but obviously no one listens to me I'm always the kill joy or know it all ... Ugh!!!! Igloo is there an igloo out there for me to hide in???
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If MIL is living with BIL now, there may be some expenses that would count for Medicaid. Can you get BIL to make some estimates now, and document anything for the future? Even if it is not a great amount, it could help.
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The more you harp on this the more you can speak it into existence. Be grateful she is not in need today. Tomorrow will take care of itself. Its called faith.
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What is her part and how long did she give to the other son? If she has just SSI it is less the $2,500 a month will qualify for Medicaid. If you fee he is taking advantage and misusing her SSI check call a lawyer.
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You're at a crossroads here, it seems. You can't take care of her, and now your brother is saying the same thing.

DO NOT MOVE HER IN WITH YOU, even temporarily. Your H doesn't want you to, so don't ruin that relationship by doing so!

If there is a penalty period for Medicaid, you can pay your part from the money your mother gave you (I think?). Your brother will just have to keep your mother in his house because he can't give his portion back.

I repeat DO NOT MOVE HER IN WITH YOU because of your brother's spending the money she gave him and the fact that he doesn't want her living with him anymore.
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I don't see that you can do anything at all about this situation.

All your husband can do is safeguard his mother's money until the look-back period is done (to cover the technical aspects) or indefinitely (to cover the moral aspects), and be prepared to use it for her care.

Your brother in law is an idiot. If your MIL does need substantial care within the next two years and the remaining 50% runs out, then he is in the frame for the ongoing costs up to the amount of the share he's already spent - as you realise. But the potential liability he is exposing himself to cannot rebound on you and your husband - unless you're tender-hearted enough to allow yourself to be emotionally blackmailed into making up the deficit yourselves.

And, I have to say, your mother in law is even more of an idiot.

So, in conclusion, when it comes to crossing your fingers and hoping for the best as a form of planning, you can see where your BIL gets it from, can't you?

What is the worst case scenario you're envisaging?
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Pegshere Oct 2018
Worst case scenario would have to be that they apply fo Medicaid ... and my dh falls for his brothers "Please bro help me out of this mess" or I'll kill myself or some other ploy to get him to cave in. I already told my dh in no uncertain terms I am not paying for their escapades to Walmart. Recently they almost lost their condo a year ago by paying interest only until it caught up to them. They asked dh to cosign a $250,000.00 loan to keep them in their condo!!! Had the nerve to actually say they only needed $220K but wanted a little extra for a cushion!!!!!! Man is still alive and breathing so obviously he didn't do it. But I am dealing with the lowest of the low that think they are totally entitled you have it they want it so hand it over!!! Obviously there is no relationship between us I havent seen SIL since FIL passed in 2008. They moved into a rental house they couldn't afford. A year later he got his disability settlement and they moved into the condo where they are now dropping $80,000.00 down on that! That's the condo I'm guessing will be sold to get the money back and they head to an apartment where they shou,d have gone in the first place!
I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination and I have my own financial obligations. I told my husband if he even breathes the word help when this $h*t hits the fan I'm waisting no time heading straight to a lawyer. I will not take this lying down!!!!
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I skim so many threads that I got some basis facts mixed-up in my post...sorry! It's your MIL and not your mother.

Continue to refuse to let MIL move in (as you did before she moved in with BIL). You can bet BIL will try to make that happen when it becomes obvious there will be a Medicaid penalty.

MIL stupidly gave away her money, and BIL stupidly spent it. Let those two Stupids deal with the consequences.
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Pegshere Oct 2018
If I had write the ending to this saga I think it would go something like this ... Mother in law ends up with a roof over her head in a NH while BIL and SIL end up in a SRO with a leaky roof. When they almost lost thier condo due to foreclosure and moved into a $$$ rented house I said to my husband why don't they downsize into an apartment and he said because SIL said an apartment would be unacceptable. Gee I wonder then if a SRO would be acceptable!!!! I swear you can't write things like this ... Oh wait I just did didn't I? :)

I'm hoping though that if Medicaid is needed they can somehow attach a lien or something to the 80K they put down on the condo their in OR make them sell to pay back what they moronically spent!
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Not your circus, not your monkeys. They’ll have to deal with the fallout, you’ve done nothing wrong.
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Pegshere Oct 2018
Had to laugh at this one! Trust me LakeErie the circus and the monkeys are a huge step up from these screwballs!
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I'm sorry, I have only just seen your reply where you explain that your BIL has been your mother's caregiver, and she has been living in his home. For how long? And what costs did that involve?
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rovana Oct 2018
So it may be possible that money given to BIL would equal reasonable compensation for care, rent, etc.?
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Hi Pegshere,
Sorry to hear you mil is not doing well. Regarding the 5 year Medicaid lookback the important thing to consider is determine how long the penalty would be. This is determined by the average cost of care in your state. You can check online. Depending on the amount of money gifted (including yours and bil) you need to figure if penalty would be longer than just simply waiting the 2 years to enroll in Medicaid.
I had an elder care attorney inFla that helped with my Mom enrolling in Medicaid. You can always put application in and just not enroll her if you are not ready yet. It took almost 9 months for my Mom to officially be covered under Medicaid. Her attorney told me just get app in and when they call with care questionare they ask many questions as to level of needs. It is a slow process.
You should figure the exact date money was given away and determine exactly 5 years after the date and apply for Medicaid few months before. This might be much sooner than incurring a penalty. Some penalties depending on dollar amount incurred can be much more than 2 years. Good luck and do listen to others about Not letting her move in with you! Sometimes this disqualified them from acceptance as you are then responsible for their care.
My mom was still in her home and I took her with me all day for 2 years and my lazy brother who lived with her all his life only had to make sure she didn’t wander out overnight but even that was a challenge! Now my mom is in nice small residential care home and doing well. Her ss pays half and star pays other half. Good luck to you; it is a long journey. Many hugs!!
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I agree, the best you can do is to safeguard your husband's portion of MIL's money and use it if needed in the meantime for her care until she needs and/or qualifies for Medicaid.

Your DH and BIL should talk with mom and look into getting a guaranteed issue burial insurance policy. They are usually small, between $3K-20K worth of insurance, but you would have that in place to help cover funeral and burial costs when the time comes in case for some reason the burial fund isn't there as expected.
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I would talk to an elder care attorney. Other than that, since you said the bulk of the care would be on you......DO NOT LET HER MOVE IN WITH YOU. It might destroy your marriage.
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If MIL needs to apply for Medicaid within the next two years, the full penalty period may well exceed that two-year period, depending on the amount transferred and the state "penalty divisor" (roughly the average nursing home cost in your state). If that's the case, then it's better to pay privately until the full 5-year period from the date of her gifts (i.e., two years from now) runs out.

Gabriel Heiser
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You were very wise to put that money aside.

Who has financial POA? If you or husband, get it changed NOW to BIL, because whoever has it has to worry about this. That is what hubby & I did with his parents when they were loaning money to SILs that then turned to gifting.

Any money not spent on legitimate expenses during the 5-yr look back period that Medicaid will comb thru will affect the timing of when Medicaid starts. Fortunately for your BIL, because MIL was living with them, he can meet with an elder-care lawyer, one well versed in applying for Medicaid, who will help him with documenting qualifying expenses. That is what my cousins had to do when they were applying for Medicaid for my aunt.

I, along with so many others, can’t stress enough to NOT have MIL move in with you. So many red flags there if you do. My SILs, who live together & have MIL there as well, tried to do this when things got less than ideal and MIL could no longer frivolously spend money on them. Key word is TRIED. No amount of guilting or pressure could make us cave. We offered to help, with her staying with them, but that wasn’t acceptable — it was all or nothing. Ok, fine; that’s your choice. We all have to learn to live with the results of our choices. Right now my husband is considered the “no-help” sibling who “abandoned” them. Gaslighting at its finest.

Anyway, perhaps you & hubby, or just you if you’re OK with that, could offer some very specific assistance when she goes back home to them. Good luck!
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YOU did nothing wrong. DO NOT USE YOUR MONEY GIVEN TO YOU. It belongs to YOU and you may need it down the road. DO NOT GIVE IT UP. You say you saved it for an emergency - so you may need to take it for Medicaid. Not sure. Second, DO NO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW MIL TO MOVE IN WITH YOU. It will have horrific consequences and you may be burdened with her forever as she gets worse. And you will destroy youself and your family. Tell Medicaid, because they will find out about the money, that your brother SPENT HIS PORTION. As far as I would be concerned, and I assume Medicaid too, YOUR BROTHER MUST PAY THE AMOUNT USED UP BUT WHICH IS REQUIRED TO GET MEDICAID. Get an attorney if you need one to force him. He is at fault - committed the "crime" so let him be forced to pay what needs to be paid. YOU STAY OUT OF IT - DO NOT GET INVOLVED.
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rovana Oct 2018
Obviously brother who spent the money has the moral obligation to pay back if care needed, BUT legally can he be compelled to do it? I'm not real sure about this and it may differ from state to state.
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If she needs help before 2 years, Medicaid won't pay until she uses the full amount of the money she had on herself or you will have to wait out that period by caring for her yourself. In other words, if she had enough money to pay for 1 year in a facility, then they would not pay for her until year 2.
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Use some of that money you have set aside to consult an Elder Law attorney. Perhaps BIL should go with you. In any case, an experienced lawyer can help minimize the consequences from this unfortunate gifting.

This is not a time to use your neighbor's brother who specializes in Family Law or your boss's daughter who is into Corporate Law. The specialty is critical. Find an Elder Law specialist.
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Pegshere; WHEW !! yep thats a big problem maybe get your hubby to be durable POA along with medical and maybe get her to move in with you or the other son who spent all the money maybe take turns but make sure the responsible person controls everything especally financial ...this will help control any future mistakes on spending of MIL finances sorry hang in there maybe MIL stays really healthy....hugs to you!!
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My father, who is 95 just gifted my sister and me money. I did speak to my attorney regarding this and was told you are permitted to gift money ( not to exceed $15,000 Per person)once a year with no consequences. If this is the case, the money that she gave her children should not enter into any legal problems should she need to go into a nursing home . I live in Pennsylvania.
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kdcm1011 Oct 2018
Did you ask this lawyer specifically about the implications if your father would have to apply for Medicaid in the next 5 years? The $15K gifting limit is for no tax consequences now. Here in CT, monetary gifts given during the 5-yr look back period is disallowed & expected to be returned.
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She cannot apply for Medicaid unless she has no assets.  However, if that is the case, and she needs medical care, she should be able to apply immediately.  Unfortunately, in our country we take better care of people from other countries than we do of our elderly.  Hiring someone to take care of her in the home is usually less expensive than putting her in a facility (if she cannot get Medicaid). Can the brother-in-law help out at all?  Another possibility is to see if a facility will help get Medicaid for her.  I know that hospitals will do that if a person is hospitalized, does not have the money to pay, and qualifies for Medicaid.  So it is worth a try.  Does she own a home?  If so, she could do a reverse home mortgage and use those funds to pay someone to take care of her in her home.  I know you may have thought of all these things already, but I just thought I might suggest them.  My heart is with you as I know how difficult this is.
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worriedinCali Oct 2018
She can apply immediately but the 5 year look back is the problem and she will likely not be covered right away. She gave away her money 3 years ago.
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Hopefully staying on track, but can anyone line out what paperwork Medicaid will want to see? Right now I feel I am literally saving every bill, every statement, every piece of paper, and it is getting pretty chaotic.
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anonymous806474 Oct 2018
Hopefully you are not in the Nursing home...……..doing paperwork before is basically showing bank account statements, know your five year lookback,
if there is money you will use it towards a Funeral Trust...the only use of any money unless there is more u will do a spend down...My Dad only had 10,000 that my Brother had left in there for his funeral....anything else.....you are not allowed more that 2000 in an account for Medicaid...so prepare yourself...………...no retirement accounts,insurance proceeds etc and hopefully check out the Medicaid NH in the area and make sure you can get into a good facility nearby...only so many beds...…...if you are a Veteran or a widow you can look into this as its truly THE BEST FOR SENIORS IN THEIR HELP...MEANMING THEY SAVED MY DAD WITH
PROVIDING MONEY WITH AID AND ATTENDANCE MAKING IT EASIER
ON HIS SON WHO DIED BY KICKING IN 900 PER MO...…….TO PAY HIM TOWARDS HIS CARE....AT 96 DUE TO NOT KNOWING RESOURSES...
PLEASE GET ALL YOUR INO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BTW, Medicaid is not going to make anyone give any money back. They simply are not going to start paying for the nursing home or other care until the penalty period is up. It is up to the applicant (their family) to figure out what to do until then. If the money still exists, the family may decide to use it to pay for the care until Medicaid will. Or they may care for the applicant themselves until then. Medicaid is not a collection agency and they do not go after money that was unwisely given away.

See an ELDER LAW ATTORNEY!
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There are a lot of replies to read so maybe someone has already suggested this but does your BIL have a care agreement set up with his mother? Maybe the costs of her care going forward can eventually equal the amount she "Prepaid" him three years ago.
Hope she stays healthy!
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