My FIL's drivers license was revoked due to serious health issues, yet he continues to drive. He'll freak out if we take away his car keys. Any suggestions?

Thanks for checking back in, IM.

Sounds like SIL might benefit from some counseling; living in fear of your elderly father is no way for an adult child to live.

With a therpist's help, she could learn to be more assertive and not be cowed by his disapproval and anger.

Going forward in caring for her dad with dementia, there may be many times when she is simply going to have to say "no, I can't let you do that, dad".

I wish to thank all of you for your secondary, and much more thoughtful replies. I printed yesterday's replies and gave them to my husband. Much appreciated, I will give these new replies as well.

This is an immediate crisis in his family, Yesterday, his father was prescribed steroids for the pain he suffers from the terribly degenerative disease, diabetes. Within days he will 'feel fine' again. Then, his fierce independence will rear its head and SIL will shrink away from her necessary duty of protecting him from himself.

Please, understand that I, too, was in the position of removing driving privileges from my mother due to her drinking and driving when she was 78. I will never forget her reply when I questioned her drinking and driving to the liquor store at 9AM. She said "Well, I've never been caught." That was a stunning realization that my dear Mom was no longer acting as a responsible adult and that I had to take away the keys. To this day, 6 years later, I continue to bring her wine and beer in daily amounts has no control over her drinking. Over the years, through several very drunken hospital emergency room visits, I have weaned her to a reasonable 3 drinks of wine or beer/day from her decades long, liver damaging fifth/liter of hard liquor /day.

My husband's family is Sicilian. 'Respect for Father' is unquestioned in his family. Counseling, suggested by us a year ago, was stubbornly declined. Fifteen months ago, FIL nearly died. He had developed a bleeding ulcer and began vomiting blood. SIL was with him at the time. He was paced on a ventilator for 10 days and not expected to come off of it. His will-to-live was strong and he left the hospital/rehab intact some 3 weeks later. At that time, my husband and I asked him to come live with us as we are retired and comfortable. FIL's assets are few, barely enough to carry him along. The entire family waited to see FIL's decision. He declined saying "I want to live life on my own terms." That meant driving and sugar based sweets. Frustratingly, that was the end of it. We have over the many years tried unsuccessfully to offer non-sugar substitutes and wiser dietary choices. He would have none of it.

Of course, you are all correct in all aspects of this situation. My husband and I have discussed all of those issues with BIL and SIL for more than a year: state of dementia, injury to himself and others, asset loss, etc. SIL has DPOA, but as I said, she is too timid to speak out to her father. Husband and BIL speak with FIL frequently about these issues. FIL is in complete denial.

My husband and I discussed a visit to his father sooner, in mid April. At that time, as kindly as is possible, my husband will put his Father's car on blocks in his garage and will bring the wheels to our home. Removing his keys is insufficient as he has called the dealership to order new keys in the past when SIL hid them. It is unlikely that FIL will call the auto dealership and spend the funds to put new wheels on the car. His brother will be there mid May.

Thank you all for your thoughtful consideration. Your secondary answers were detailed, containing your own experiences. These more heartfelt replies will bolster my husband's courage and give him confidence that he is doing the right thing for all involved. Again...many thanks.

Some answers seem unkind because the situation is grossly unkind. What did your FIL ever do to deserve out-of-control blood sugars? Who decided that he was deserving of the devastating disease of dementia? Sometimes (often) life is unkind, and we have to cope with it anyway.

According to my husband, the absolutely worst thing about his 10 year journey with dementia was having his license revoked. This happened within the first year. He mourned his car for at least a full year. He finally got past that and spent the rest of his life mostly content.

We are not giving you unkind answers because we don't know how extremely hard this is for the caregiver. We have been the caregiver. And not all of us are assertive by nature. This is extremely hard on SIL. I am truly sorry about that. It is hard on your husband and his brother. My heart goes out to them, too. But public safety trumps all of that.

The possible consequences here are too severe to worry about being "kind."

Sometimes there are tough decisions to be made and sometimes they cause our LOs to get mad. When you refused to let your toddler run in the street or jump in a pool when they can't swim...they may be angry, throw a fit, hit and kick...but we still would not let them do it. Instead we use a fence, lock, and many other ways to protect them. We also are more watchful in dangerous situations.

I see this in much the same way. If he will not willingly give up driving (which is dangerous) then it is the caregivers (plural) responsible to make it happen. Using safety measures...disable the car, take the keys, lock the garage...and be more watchful...are absolutely necessary. Keeping our LOs safe is the highest form of respect.

I do feel compassion for your FIL. Find ways to meet his needs...if that is sweets...look for healthy diabetic alternatives. Sorry, if you think everyone was being unkind...I just think this is so scary they want you to know how serious it is. Waiting until May doesn't seem advisable.

Original poster - the answers seem unkind because there is urgency. Your FIL is a current danger and the driving needs to stop now. My dad told my stepmom he could drive after his stroke - she took his keys away and endured is anger - over and over and over. She didn't admit taking them - she had years of my dad's raging - let him think they were lost. Unknown to her- he had a second pair. One day while she was at work - he drove into town to buy something - lost control and ran through the fence and over outdoor toys at a home based day care that was on a street corner. No one was outside at the time - they were having lunch - but all of us shook to think about what would have happened if the kids were outside. The police arrested him for driving without a license and that experience finally scared him enough.

Bottom line - your FIL is not thinking straight - cannot be reasoned with. Is a danger to himself and others. He doesn't sound like you can deal with his car with out him raging - there is not a "nice" way to do this. He is going to be p-oed. If your SIL can't stand up to him - then the sons need to and who cares if he flips out.

I honestly do not see the logic of hoping that he won't kill anyone in the mean time until someone can deal with him in a few months.

I apologize if you thought my answer was unkind. It was more of a reality check because this was the number 1 problem of my caretaker journey.

Our generation was taught to respect parents....or else! No amount of begging, pleading, cajoling, logical talk will ever change their minds. That's not what they do. Most of this "greatest generation" are so tough that they consider it weakness to give in.

I think we are the logical generation because we have to not only try to raise our own families while we struggle to earn a living, educate our kids, all while worrying and taking care of the elders, whom you have to admit....are so inflexible, while we have to juggle and stand on our head!!!

Those of us who have answered here are passionate about this topic because we have lived it, agonized over it...and have been scared and frustrated about it.

There is no easy answer here. Only the truth....that we can prevent a tragedy with a little drama.

I re-read your posts and would like to add that if FIL has severe diabetes, he may need more care than what his daughter can provide. I am a Type I diabetic and am familiar with diet, carb counting, blood sugar control, etc. Maintaining that blood sugar control with a LO who has dementia, is non-compliant or resistant.....it's an extremely challenging goal, even for someone who is assertive. But, treats can be worked in. Is he on insulin? If not, it's a little harder.

Then, when you add on the driving without a license.....it's a lot for a non-assertive person to handle. You may be expecting something from the daughter that is not likely to happen.

The risks here appear to be great. She could be held accountable for not protecting her father or financially liable if others are injured. Or his estate could be held liable, in monetary damages, not just criminal prosecution. So, I might caution the other family members that dad could lose all his assets, if found liable of hurting or killing innocent people on the road.

I'd still get a legal consult with an attorney in his jurisdiction, so the true facts and options can be obtained. Sometimes, the kindest and most loving thing we can do is to stand firm in protecting the LO, even when it seems awkward or unpleasant. Certainly, an Elder Law attorney in the area has encountered this type of thing and can offer vital advice and some remedies.

I'm wondering If you and family members have read Atul Gawande's book, On Being Mortal. He talks a lot about the hard choices that we sometimes have to make when balancing an elder's happiness and THEIR safety. Sometimes, there are only choices between bad and worse, especially when it comes to medical care at the end of life.

But in this situation, there are OTHER lives involved as well. It swings the balance to "must" and not "maybe".

Your family has ALOT on its plate; you've got several ill family members and the family "system" is overwhelmed. It's time to look at the available resources and see what can be brought to bear to force some change in FIL's care situation. You can ask for an involuntary psychiatric admission if he's behaving irrationally or aggressively. You can get him in to see an outpatient geriatric psychiatrist to discuss meds and how to deal with this situation. You can call the insurance company and talk to their medical director about what actions you might take. But I think you HAVE to do SOMETHING.

I'm sorry that you are feeling so stressed about this.

I'm so sorry that you don't see the answers I'm giving you as helpful.

I believe that you are all proceeding from a false assumption; that FIL is cognitively competent. As an example, my mom gave up driving at 88 because she sensed that her reflexes were no longer fast enough. Interestingly, two years later, when she had been diagnosed with Mild Cognitive Impairment, she declared in a conversation to a friend that "I can drive if I want to".

That FIL does not recognize that without a licence and with no feeling in his legs and feet that he is a dangerous and illegal driver speaks volumes about his lack of logical thought. This veers from "stubborn and proud" into mentally incompetent to make his own decisions, at least where I come from.

I suggested in my first answer that if he "freaks out" and daughter has to call 911 to get him to a hospital with a possible stroke/heart attack/mental breakdown, EVERYONE's purpose would be served. You'd get him an evaluation and possiblly placement in rehab where his sugar could be brought under control and meds for agitation and aggression might be trialed.

I understand that the family is under much stress from all the ill elders. I understand all the hand-wringing and "what to do?" I truly do.

I watched my cousins go through this with their parents. It all stemmed from fear of their mentally ill, extremely rich dad. No one would stand up and say "no, you can't do that dad".

When someone finally did, he lived out the last 5 years of his life in a VA nursing home, happier than he'd been in years because his care needs, including his mental needs, were being addressed.

Unfortunately, this didn't happen until my poor aunt died, at least in part because HE wouldn't allow her to be cared for in a care center. HE was the boss. Fortunately, she was his only , and I will admit, willing, victim.

My father, many years ago, was told to stop driving by his doctor (he had leukemia). He resisted; my mom said she wouldn't get into the car with him if he ever drove again. He gave up the keys and died about a week later. He clearly was not interested in living if he couldn't drive any more.

So, if daughter is not willing to risk a "freak out", which as outlined above, might actually be a good thing, then the boys will need to take/disable the car in the Spring. I understand that daughter will then face his daily wrath.

Does anyone see his extreme anger as a symptom? Has he been seen by a geriatric psychiatrist for an evaluation for depression, anxiety, and the meds that might help?

If you've been reading this board for two years, you MUST know that the "reactions" that we see in elders need to be seen as symptoms, and that at least in my world view, geriatric psychiatrists can SOMETIMES work wonders in calming a previously murderously angry father into someone more amenable to getting care.

For heaven's sake! I'm not suggesting that the police should go and arrest the poor man.

Are the police unusually overstretched in their area? Because unless they are, they will almost certainly have officers who are experienced and helpful in community matters, including the firm but sympathetic handling of people like your FIL. Has your SIL tried having a conversation with them and been rebuffed, is that why you're sceptical about the idea?

Crime prevention is a perfectly legitimate activity of law enforcement, and most policemen are adept at combining authority with a respectful attitude. At least ask for their help.

Or your husband - this is actually his problem more than yours, why not share the responses with him? - can sit on his hands for another two months. I'm sure that's unkind too, mea culpa; but then again people saying "oh what can we do what can we do" while prepared to DO nothing can be extremely frustrating.

BarbBrooklyn, you're not helping. You are guilt tripping. I've asked y'all for help, not guilt.

You can't "talk sense" to someone with dementia.

He needs to be in a care center if he's not rational and the daughter can't stand up to his insistence on driving illegally and dangerously. At this point he is like a deranged person with a gun.

I'm sorry if that sounds unkind. I think it's the truth.

Countrymouse, sometime in May both sons are going to see their father for an extended stay. It is apparent that the only solution is to take Father's keys and hopefully, in a few weeks, the situation will calm enough to leave sister with her duties. May is the earliest both sons can go to their father.

Countrymouse, I have often appreciated your suggestions, but not this time. The police are of no help in this situation. They will pull him over and arrest him if he is doing something wrong, but they will not involve themselves in this prior to a traffic infraction. You must see that an arrest would make this situation even worse for SIL.

Also - if you really think all the answers are that unsympathetic and will only distress her, please don't mail them to your SIL.

If the police can't or won't help, then the boys must get together and stage an intervention leaving her out of it altogether. It's no good trying to force a person who simply isn't assertive to detach from her feelings - at best, she'd find it extremely upsetting, and at worst she'd undermine the whole project and you'd all be back to square one.

I'm sorry you found the answers unkind.

Perhaps your SIL could appeal to the police to assist her - she will probably be told that the car is his property and they can't take it away; but given the circumstances, in particular that his driving the car is now against the law, they may be prepared to help her in order to prevent an offence being committed. Then they can be the "baddies" and she can be the one saying "poor Dad, but not to worry and it can't be helped."

To all those who responded above: I am printing all your answers and am mailing them to his caregiver daughter. I have been a member of this blog for more than 2 years. I am disappointed by those with the unkind answers. You are usually more sympathetic, and certainly kinder, to the elder person and the person writing. I can only assume that those with the unkind answers did not read my question thoroughly.

My husband and I live 7 hours away and already are caregivers to my 84 year old mother suffering from advanced lung disease, liver disease, alcoholism and dementia. His other son is 14 hours away and he and his wife are caregivers to her elderly mother and sister who are suffering from advanced lung cancers. My FIL's daughter is his caregiver. She is a very kind and helpful person to him, but she is not an assertive person to him. We have asked her to take his keys. She will not. If my husband makes the trip to take his keys or disable his car, my husband must leave in a few days and leave his sister to take responsibility for all problems with their father.

I was hoping for someone who has a kinder way of talking sense to my FIL or helping my SIL to garner the courage to take his keys. Apparently, there are no easier solutions to this problem.

I have asked my husband to talk to his sister about purchasing Father his sweets in exchange for his car keys. Certainly this is not the best solution either. I must assume many of you are unaware of the acute health emergencies of far-advanced diabetics which his caregiver daughter will certainly feel responsible for if her father is given sweets with impunity. It would seem many of you need to investigate diabetes and its final stages.

I was hoping for an answer that did not add additional problems to my caregiver SIL, who already has a very difficult time with her father, for whom she shows great respect, love, and caring.

He's 90. Just get him his sweets.
Just take the battery out, or find the right fuses so it wont start.
We know a man he should not be driving, 89 years old. He has backed into people a few times. He will not listen to his only child to not drive. He still has a license.
We pray hard for him and his wife.
May God bless and help you with this situation.

He is a danger to others on the road as well as himself. Some one in the family needs to take responsibility for removing the keys and disabling his car. As well the insurer needs to be informed as his insurance will be null and void as he is not legal to drive.

If the family avoids doing this because dad has a hissy fit and he kills someone, how do you deal with the guilt?

IMBabci2,

Which frightens you more?

Him freaking out?

or

Someone dies because of his driving or is terribly injured followed by a lawsuit?

I’ll add to the other great answers above. Mother refused to relinquish her car keys after a 2 week jury trial following the big crash she caused. I drove her to the courthouse and sat with her each day. She agreed not to drive at her Dr appointment, but changed her mind or forgot when we got home. I finally got up the courage to steal the keys away from her.
Yes, it was a big drama scene and very unpleasant. Thank god I did it before someone got killed.

He'll freak out.

He might kill someone or himself.

Are you really having trouble deciding between those two?

I'd seek advice from an attorney in his area. There could be serious legal implications for driving without a license. Not only that, but, if he causes injury or death to others, who will be held accountable? Can family members who allowed it be held liable for monetary damages? Most insurance companies only cover valid licensed drivers. You might read the fine print on the policy. It's a HUGE risk and I would treat his driving under the circumstances you describe as an emergency. The public safety trumps hurt feelings, so, I'd seek an immediate remedy.

Hello there,
I am the one whose father drove INTO the bank. By the grace of God, the pregnant woman whose office he drove into was at a doctor appt. It took us another 5 years and multiple interactions with cops and optometrists to get him to stop driving. The police did what they could, but in his stage of dementia, it only made him go onto a stage of threatening cops.

This is the hardest thing you will ever do, even harder than if you have to place them into care. But please do it. Great advice above. How can he stop if he cannot feel his feet? He will end up killing someone. This Christmas, an elderly man here drove the wrong way down the interstate and killed a young couple. He walked away.

Snitch that car and put it into a storage unit. Have a family intervention. This really frightens me. I am so over the pride thing. Human life (potential victims) is too valuable.

Get this guy off the road before he kills innocent people. I went through this with my dad. I got no help from doctors or police.

There are 2 ways to do this. A family intervention, take the keys then the car. That way he’ll hate everyone equally. Or.....

Disable the car. Pop the hood, open the fuse/relay box and pull out the starter relay. It will be labeled on the fuse box lid. When FIL is asleep stick the relay back in and remove the car.

Don’t let him be the old guy on the six o’clock news that drives through the store window.

You don't have to play the bad guy, let the DMV and police help you without hurting him or others.

There is very little dignity in old age if you are stubborn and too proud to admit that you need help.

As CM advises, disable the car in some way. Report all this to his insurance company.

It sounds like, in general, he is a danger to himself (and others).  You are worried he'll "freak out"?

So he has a stroke and ends up in the hospital, and gets the care he needs.  And he doesn't get to kill any small children.  I fail to see the harm in that scenario, frankly. 

Are you sure that he does not have dementia? How about telling the police what he is doing and see if they will take the keys from him? How about telling the car insurance people that his licence has been revoked and his doctors have declared that he should not drive? Is he a danger to others in the sense that he might become physically violent?

Um. Your FIL is a danger to himself and others, but more to the point he is breaking the law. And he is driving uninsured. Can the family afford to risk the hundreds to thousands to millions of dollars in potential lawsuits? Him being angry vs explaining to a family why he drove into their child... which takes more courage, do you think?

For today, take the wheels off his car and put it on axle stands. Deny all knowledge of how that happened. Run like the wind.

Ask his local police to call and "have a word."

If in all seriousness he is doing this because he wants some sweets, get him some sweets for Chrissakes. The time has long passed when you can protect him from the consequences of his poor dietary decisions.