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Mom went to cardiologist today and he took her off of her BP med Verapamil 240 mg that she had been on for 30 years to get her heart rate up. I’ve never heard of such a thing. When she was off of it in the ER last week her BP went up to 185/90. Was in for TIA and put on Eloquis


Heart rate between 46 and 58. She is 90 years old.


Her pro BNp was 1350 snd he said that’s not a big deal bc she does have any other symptoms- but her chart says bilateral pleural effusions and she is short of Breath and SaO2 is between 90/94.


I want home nurses to do vitals every day to make sure her BP doesn’t skyrocket and her not know.


Any suggestions?!

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If you don’t trust the doctor get a second opinion from another doctor - not this board.
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Protip: Trust a trained cardiologist over a random internet forum that can post anything they want.
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SavingMom2014: This is a question for a medical doctor. We are not physicians here on the forum. I cannot provide any 'okay' on medications.
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This is not odd at all. The reason for a decrease in dose OR complete non-use is due to her physiological findings. You should ask the cardiologist what the rationale is. Meds are changed more often than not based on efficacy or side effects. Definitely speak to the doc :)
ALSO - ADVOCATE for her as you are. I ask 50 questions...why, how, what...
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She might need specific treatment for the plueral effusion other than eliminating or changing the blood pressure medication.

You can take her blood pressure with a monitor at home. It is not something a nurse needs to do.
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Maybe take her to another cardiologist or seek a second opinion via ZOOM call.
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That does seem like an odd move by the doctor. Also did he/she slowly decrease dosage to nothing or just cut it out altogether at once? The latter could be dangerous.

I think you're wise to ask the caregivers to check her vitals daily. I would also ask for a 2nd opinion from a doctor in a different practice.
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Was your mother doing well on the BP meds she was taking for 30 years?

She was taken off of this medication and a week later has a mini-stroke (TIA). That would indicate to me that she needs to go back on the meds that have been working for her for 30 years.

Doctors will sometimes do this with elderly patients. Take them off some med they've been using for years simply because they want to try something and see what it does.

Make the doctor who took her off her medication give you a detailed explanation why. Keep in mind that she did have a stroke when she was taken off the medication.

You may not get homecare nurses coming in daily unless you're paying privately.
You can get buy BP cuff. The digital ones are very easy to use. You can test your mother's BP daily or anyone else.
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AlvaDeer Jun 2023
Burnt, See Saving Mom's June 19th update and warning under Golden's June 17th post below.
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At 101 yrs, my Mother was taken off all BP meds (and most of her other meds). She has done much, better without the BP meds. She continues to do well off all the BP meds.
Recently she took a fall and had to go to the ER for some stitches. They kept her overnight to be sure there weren't other problems. Of course her BP was high being in the ER and the hospital and they wanted to put her on BP meds. I did not allow it. I actually stayed in her room all night as they kept pushing for the BP meds (even at 3 am). Her BP had been slowly returning to its normal range.
While BP meds were good for her for many years, but she started developing adverse reactions -- she would be incoherent. At 102 yrs. she continues to be remarkable (without most medications).
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golden23 Jun 2023
Same experience with my mother. When she was about 102 they took her off all meds except her thyroid meds. Her BP stayed remarkably in the right range (she had been on them for years) and she lived to 106. Her vitals were good till the day she died.
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I’ve been reading books by geriatricians, and “de-prescribing”—especially bp meds—comes up a lot. It seems that many of the so-called “very old” do better with fewer bp meds. AlvaDeer provides a medical explanation. I’ll add that my own mom has had some collapses/near-collapses that I think may have been caused by sudden bp drops (I say this because they occurred in the evening after taking bp meds, and after large meals or bowel movements).

Anyway, I’m not a doctor, but I do think that medical staff get a little too fixated on bp targets for adults without sufficient attention to the special circumstances of the elderly.

Another consideration: kidney function can decline with age with the result that smaller amounts of bp med have effects equivalent or even greater than the earlier-in-life doses.

In the ER, my mother’s bp routinely shoots up over 180. What brings it down is getting her back home. The mistake I made the first time was letting her remain in the hospital with bp meds being shot right into her (note: she was not in the hospital for bp but was being *kept* there for that) and aligning myself with the medical staff in trying to calm her down and convince her this was necessary (she HATES blood pressure medications).

(Fun exchange with young nurse…. Mom: [to nurse] Don’t ever take blood pressure medication. Him [nurse]: What should I do instead? Eat right and exercise?)

We do occasionally get high readings (170s) at home. Generally, though, relaxation and deep breathing brings the number down. 

I understand that high bp puts her at greater risk for stroke, but falling is also a major risk.

Again, I’m not a doctor. I’m just sharing what I’ve observed and experienced with my own mother. 

Good luck and take care.
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KPWCSC Jun 2023
I hope everyone takes your comments seriously. When dealing with geriatric patients if at all possible find a geriatrician. Just like you probably found a pediatrician for your babies. When it comes to medication, most ER doctors do not have the experience to make adjustments for geriatric patients. As we age and deal with multiple issues, medication rules may change and this is exactly why there is a geriatric specialty. When someone is a 24/7 caregiver or otherwise closely involved to observe the changes, they often are the ones who see the small differences that need to be taken in consideration. I love with providers who tell me that out up front when trying to make decisions. An ER doctor recently prescribed only Tylenol for pain because he noted our PCP was a geriatrician and wanted us to follow-up with that office if more was needed. I never fill prescriptions given at urgent care or the ER until I verify them with our geriatrician. If you can't find a geriatrician in your area, many internists and family practice doctors have geriatrics as their secondary specialty. Too many providers do not know what they don't know and refuse to admit it when questioned.
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I remember taking my mom to the ER one evening. She couldn’t exactly explain how she was feeling. She just said that she wasn’t feeling like herself. I thought she should see someone and off we went to the ER.

The hospitalist told me that she wanted my mom to discontinue her BP meds.

I was concerned because my mom had taken BP meds for years. In her younger years, she had high BP.

The hospitalist said, “Your mom’s BP is very low and that is why she isn’t feeling well. She has Parkinson’s disease and people who have Parkinson’s disease tend to have low BP. The meds are causing her BP to drop too low.

No one ever told my mom or I that Parkinson’s patients had lower BL, not her primary care doctor or her neurologist.

Anyway, it made complete sense that the hospitalist took her off of her BP meds.

Sometimes, we are confused due to the lack of information about a situation that we have.

There is a reason why the cardiologist is saying that the BP meds are no longer needed. Just like there was a reason for my mom not to take them.

My mother actually felt better after discontinuing the meds.

Best wishes to you and your mom.
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SavingMom:

When you first posted I answered you; you seemed to have a lot of information and "numbers" and diagnostic information. At that time, and for that reason, I WRONGLY assumed you were MPOA.
As I understand it now, you are not? I think that others may have assumed you "were in charge" and I think it caused this thread to go off into the weeds a bit with advice (including my own).

If you are not the MPOA then this problem above is for A) the MD, B) the patient and C) the MPOA to discuss and make decisions.

Golden is correct. Your Mom was on a Calcium Channel Blocker. One side effect of these meds is lowering the HR. Her MD may have decided her rate was too low to continue this medication without a pacemaker (which he may or may not have discussed with your mom).

There was then the incident of the blood pressure going up. This could have been prevented with daily checks with a blood pressure machine, or caught early, and reported to MD by WHOMEVER is the MPOA or by Mom herself if she is still capable of handling her medical with her MD. A TIA resulted.

The long and the short here is that your mother is 90. Her systems are aging. Her treatment now is up to her, her MD and her POA and should be left in their hands. They will have many decisions to make about what "might work", about what heroic measures are or are not wanted, about possible palliative care, about safe placement for safety and monitoring, and etc.

WERE I YOU:
I would try to allow those who are in charge to be in charge. I would tell everyone that you are available (if you are) and when and in what ways you are able to help if needed.

I wish you and your Mom and extended family the very, very best and hope you can all get together calmly and supportively with one another to work through what measures will work best and I wish you excellence in medical care and advice.

Know that now, for your mom's end of life care, the best thing she can have is a cohesive, cooperative, loving, organized family. I wish you the very best.
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SavingMom2014 Jun 2023
thank you for your advice and I appreciate it. I am a coPOA for Medical and Financial tho. The issues now are the other MPOA lives near mom snd doesn’t want me involved. She wants to make all the decisions and had made poor decisions regarding financial matters. Mom has documented dementia and my sister continues to say she is confused but then says she can make her own decisions about her health, and whether the wants home care. I feel mom needs someone to make these decisions snd not completely sure my sister has told me the truth about being taken off of all meds/ that almost sounds like end of life. I’m calling dr in the morning to see what is going on snd will post what I find out.
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I get it, I kind of freaked when my mom's doctor suggested palliative care and took her off 75% of her meds, I took her BP multiple times a day and was convinced she would stroke out and die (or worse, stroke out and not die). But she didn't, in fact she lived several more years and the changes didn't make any apparent difference.
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BP machines record past numbers including date and time stamps. Someone can then write numbers in a journal. As for sending info to the doctor. No device sends info on a daily basis. You make another appointment so that the doctor can review. This is usual and customary. You will also find that sending emails through doctor portals are now subject to charges. Do ask the cardiologist how high numbers have to be for an ER visit. Complex patients will sometimes be at a higher than normal number. I agree with southernwave. Her heart rate should come up. Keep following up with the cardiologist for next steps
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Agatasul Jun 2023
Whitings makes a BP monitor that allows you to send reports to your doctor. We have one for my granny, who is 100 and takes blood pressure medications still.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if I should push the conversion about the recent changes to her medication and if they make sense. It’s the case that she had BP spikes to 200+ recently. Her medications were changed when she was in rehab after a hip replacement (she fell and broke her hip). It’s been a roller coaster with lows and highs and few trips to ER because too low or too high. She’s now on metoprolol 50 mg morning and 50 mg evening) and losartan in evening. We adjust the dose based on the BP readings. I have been told that taking her off the BP medication could lead to a stroke — that might not kill her immediately but could drastically lower her quality of life.
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I think by your sister refusing to have people come into care for Mom and telling u not to talk to her Drs. is a form of Elder abuse. She is alienating Mom and not allowing her the care she needs.

Alva said for you to keep a record of Moms BP. My nephew was told to take his first thing in the morning when he got up. You take it always at rest. The right side will vary from the left.
Ask her cardiologist what her normal reading is. What would be lowest. Ask if taking her pause ox would help. Call him only if her B/P seems too high. Your Moms daughter and you have every right to speak to the doctor as sister does unless she holds Medical POA.

If you are going with Mom to the doctor, you need to learn to ask him questions if she allows u in with her. He could have answered your question why he was dropping her BP med.
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JoAnn29 Jun 2023
When the heart rate is a problem, so can be the pause ox reading. The rate of the heart has a lot to do with how much oxygen is getting in the blood.
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I am so sorry you are having these problems with your sister the co POA. I refused to be a co POA with my sister as I knew that sort of thing would happen. You are a POA co or otherwise and, as such, you have a responsibility to your mum. Personally I would say go ahead and do what you think is right on your mother's behalf. If you think you can talk with sis so the both of your are on the same page, by all means do that. But, bottom line, you are responsible for your mums care, not to obey or please your sis. I know this is hard. Even without being co POA and with living 8000 miles away my sister tried to make things go her way. It wasn't in mother's best interests and she didn't succeed.
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SavingMom2014 Jun 2023
Yes! I am going ahead and doing what I think is best for her. I called her dr today and also home health.

word of advice for everyone- as Pointed out above. Never be a co-POA. If I could step away from it I would!
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Verapamil is a calcium channel blocker and a side effect is lower heart rate.

Everything is done with risk vs benefit in mind. Her risk is that her BP might go up, but the benefit is her heart does better.

It might just be that your mom’s end of life might be closer now than farther away. (Said with great compassion). Her body’s functions are likely pooping out from how long they have been working.

But, yes, speak with her doctor. Good luck
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Honestly, I would trust the cardiologist. But I do agree that she has some results that are concerning. Your mum is 90 and it may be her age showing. Do what you like, but eventually we all slow down. I know you are doing your best for her. ((((Hugs))))
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SavingMom2014 Jun 2023
Thank you. I am starting to see it that way. Her body is getting tired.
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This is a question for the MD. As a retired RN I can tell you that the POA should speak with the MD, not a public forum about the above, as well as about any/every withdrawal or addition of any med after carefully looking up the drug and its side effects.

There are many many reasons for withdrawing medications that you cannot know without discussing the issue with the prescribing doctor. Some include the condition of the kidney at 90, lab results, and the body's ability to tolerate these meds.

Only your doctor can answer your questions about your/your loved one's medication decisions.

At 90 does your mother live alone? If so, the new automatic blood pressure and pulse machines are great. Omron is my favorite. She should keep a log of the daily measurements for her doctor. These machines are under 30.00 on amazon. You should check the machine against the MD office machine before using regularly, and at each checkup.
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SavingMom2014 Jun 2023
Yes she lives alone, except for adult son who moved in recently but isn’t involved in her care. Do you know who would supply the machine that would read results and transfer them to a dr?

I faxed my concerns to dr snd my sister took mom. But my sister doesn’t want me talking to the doctors.
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I really think a Cardiologist knows what he is doing. Too much BP medicine is just as bad as not enough. What did he say about the blood thinner?

You keep mentioning Nurses in ur posts. Nurses meaning LPNs or RNs? If Certified Nurses Aids these are not Nurses, they are not Medically trained so have limitations. I am sure they can take Moms blood pressure, and I agree should do it. May want to get a pause ox meter too.

Did you tell the doctor that Mom is under stress because of son now living there? That will raise BP. The best time to read BP is at rest. What were her readings in the doctors office,
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SavingMom2014 Jun 2023
He said stay on blood thinner and 81 aspirin. He said mom can have home care, PT and have vitals checked every day. But my sister who is co-POA doesn’t want anyone coming to the house.
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